[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

General Balance Discussion

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Fine:

--- Zitat von: Mogat am 24. Mai 2016, 11:05 ---Buildings should not be able to counter siege.

--- Ende Zitat ---

This sums up my opinion on the matter. I also believe that rams are in a good place and do not need to be made weaker against buildings. A base that can defend itself against everything would not be balanced in my opinion. You should always require units for defense, not just towers.

The_Necromancer0:
I haven't chipped in yet but I just wanted to put my opinion out there. So far I'm seeing two clear problems in the discussion. There one side which is saying that ram rush is to OP, which it is to some extent. Then there is the other side that's afraid that if rams are nerfed they'll be unable to take anything down because they can be easily countered. Both have legitimate concerns and both should be addressed.

The problem with decreasing their armor/health is that they would take too much damage from defenses and thus would be enable to do damage since they can be singled out even in the midst of a battle by the towers. This would cause major issues where ram just aren't efficient enough anymore because they get taken down too easily, they are already weak enough against melee. So this doesn't seem to be the right option.

Secondly, there is the strategic aspect and more specifically the ethics behind a ram rush. In my eyes it is a viable solution to send a small detachment of troops with a couple rams to the enemy base while your main force pulls their attention, that some basic Art of the War right there. But the thing that differentiate Art of the War and the Edain mod is that IRL the rams would be much slower and much less efficient. There lies a possible solution.

So what I think could balance the Rams would be an increased price and CP with possibly a speed and attack speed nerf. This would mean that the rams would now be a bigger opportunity cost as the player would be able to train less troops, along with that the other player would be given more time to react to a ram rush. But definitely not a armor/health nerf

Hamanathnath:
Well I don't think a Health nerf is needed.  I just think Ram's being pretty much immune to all Ranged Damage from towers besides Fire Arrows doesn't make much sense. 

It seems that a lot of people think that Towers shouldn't be able to counter Battering Rams.  There are 2 reasons why I don't agree with this.  First, because as I said before, Gondor and Mordor Towers with Fire Arrows can already counter them, which I haven't seen anyone ever complain about.  And Second, upgrading your Towers isn't cheap.  Almost every faction has to pay at least 1500 for the upgrade to Improve their Towers, plus the cost of the building and possibly improving that building.  And you also have to actually buy the towers, which is incredibly expensive for Factions like Gondor and Dwarves on Castle Maps. 

I really don't think it would make Battering Rams useless if Upgraded Towers Could Damage them like Gondor and Mordor Towers with Fire Arrows do now.  If everyone is okay with these Towers being able to deal with Battering Rams, then the way I see it, it doesn't make sense why other Upgraded Towers, which cost the around the same amount to obtain (and in fact cost more then Mordor's does), should deal so little damage to Rams.

Now concerning Towers that aren't upgraded, I can see why they should deal little Damage to Battering Rams.  I personally think that they should do slightly more just because right now the damage they do is incredibly low, and they should be able to eventually kill Battering Rams without taking forever to do so.  But I can see why making them too strong against Battering Rams would be problematic.

Odysseus:

--- Zitat ---''Isengard can get the defensive Warg Pit though, which is good against Rams.''
This is not a valid argument at all in my opinion for the following reasons.  One, you're talking about a single faction.  Two the defence warg pit is a joke because it consumes a valuable build plot.  If it consumed a defensive plot, then this argument may hold a little more weight.  This building was more valuable in the free build plot system, but with a set number of plots it is not valuable enough and is the reason why no one ever builds it.
--- Ende Zitat ---
How is this not a valid argument? Yes, I was talking about a single faction because Haman referenced Isengard being one of the factions that suffers more from a ram rush than other factions, and this is largely due to their steel bolts being much worse against rams than fire arrows. A Warg Pit is much more effective at defending your base from a ram rush than an arrow tower. Of course it takes a build plot, but you are severely underestimating the value of a properly timed and placed warg pit or arrow tower. Especially when your opponents tries to rush you down, and you have resources to spare, one tower or warg pit does the work of multiple. It's not like Isengard is starving of resources anyway if you play properly, so sacrificing 1 build plot is not the end of the world.

That said, since this whole debate escalated quite quickly, I will stick to the conservatives, and say that if the rams their performance cannot be adjusted to their cost, then they should be fine as is. Even Elendil and Mogat bothered to pitch in, and their opinions hold more weight than ours. However, if the damage of some upgraded towers is so low to rams compared to the Gondorian fire arrows, it might be in good interest to bring their damage to the same or a more reasonable level.

Hamanathnath:
The problem with the Defensive Warg Pit in this case is that, if I remember correctly, if the Pit is destroyed, Warg Defending the Pit dies.  So against a Ram Rush, it will most likely die before it makes much progress. 

The Defensive Warg Pit, in my opinion, is one of the Buildings that works better with the BFME2 style of gameplay, and doesn't really translate well to the BFME1 style.  But that's an entirely different topic.

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