General Balance Discussion

[-Mandos-]

[...] But I still don't understand why the defensive structures, whose purpose is to defend your base, can't deal with Rams unless they have Fire Arrows. [...]

That's a mistake you make there. Defensive structures are there to help you beat armies that invade your castle, did you ever try to attack an upgraded castle with an army only?
Siege units counter structures, in my opinion even the upgraded versions of defense towers shouldnt deal much damage to rams. If your castle is empty it deserves to fall, missplay by the defensive player.

Mordor and Isengard can easily get 10 rams for around 2100-3000 resources which is more than enough to do enough damage maybe even take out an entire castle that is defended...and who ever said anything about taking out rams with 200 resource units?

Then again, if your enemy, who is not ahead in terms of mapcontrol, has invested only 2000 resources into rams you could get like 5 units of swordsmen for 1000 (depends on the faction but it becomes even easier with Rohan for example) and still have units worth 1000 gold more than your opponent on other points of the map (and you can destroy the rams without casualties which benefits you 1000 gold again).

[Hamanathnath]

Well I guess this just comes down to opinion, but the way I see, If I invest a lot of resources into defensive upgrades, they should be able to kill Rams.  And when I say that, I don't mean that the Rams should die so quickly that they aren't able to hit any buildings.  I think the Damage of Upgraded Towers on Battering Rams should be similar to what Gondor/Mordor Upgraded Towers do now. 

[Elite KryPtik]

Well this has been an interesting discussion, guess I will throw in my 2 cents.

First, I will say that ram rushing can be a serious problem. You can be on the offensive with map control, killing the enemies outer farms, and he can just ram spam your base and force you to backpedal. Its a cheap and effective tactic, I do think right now that rams overperform for their cost. Especially the 300 ones.

So, in regards to nerfs, I would say that I agree with reducing their movement and attack speed, as necromancer suggested, and increasing their ranged damage against UPGRADED defensive towers to be on par with damage from fire arrows. I cannot understand why upgraded defenses of other factions should deal less against rams then fire arrow defenses, its illogical and unfair for that faction. The rams are fine in health, standard ranged armor and melee armor as far as I am concerned.

Also, something nobody has touched upon, Lothlorien can literally do nothing against a ram rush. Even if they have a horde of swordsmen defending their base, 10-15 rams with some army support WILL get in and destroy the citadel, thereby ending the game in defeat for lorien unless they have an ent moot. I know this is a bug, but it does demonstrate how much damage rams can deal before you are able to kill them. They need some kind of nerf, not necessarily health and armor, but something.

In regards to the Warg Sentry, I suggested a while back that it be moved to the defensive build plots of an Isengard base, and I don't understand why it wasn't. It would be a simple change that would REALLY increase the usefulness of the building. Its in the Isengard suggestions thread somewhere, if you want to read it

But yeah overall I see both sides of the argument and agree to a certain extent with both, so I think the best middle ground is as necromancer said, movement speed and attack speed nerf, combined with taking more damage from upgraded towers.

[Fine]

In regards to the Warg Sentry, I suggested a while back that it be moved to the defensive build plots of an Isengard base, and I don't understand why it wasn't. It would be a simple change that would REALLY increase the usefulness of the building. Its in the Isengard suggestions thread somewhere, if you want to read it

Yeah, this seems reasonable. If it is do-able (as in if the team can make the sentry fit on the smaller defence plots), then I support this change.

[Hamanathnath]

In regards to the Warg Sentry, I suggested a while back that it be moved to the defensive build plots of an Isengard base, and I don't understand why it wasn't. It would be a simple change that would REALLY increase the usefulness of the building. Its in the Isengard suggestions thread somewhere, if you want to read it

Yeah, this seems reasonable. If it is do-able (as in if the team can make the sentry fit on the smaller defence plots), then I support this change.

Pretty much have the same thoughts on the subject.  So +1

[Adrigabbro]

Is it even possible?
If the answer is yes, then I am of course in favor of your idea.

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

It wasn't because its not possible. There isn't enough space for this building.

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, my idea was to shrink it down and make the building like half its current size, and only guarded by a single warg, as would befit a defensive building.

[DrHouse93]

First, I will say that ram rushing can be a serious problem. You can be on the offensive with map control, killing the enemies outer farms, and he can just ram spam your base and force you to backpedal. Its a cheap and effective tactic, I do think right now that rams overperform for their cost. Especially the 300 ones.

Completely agree with this. I've just lost a match with a friend, where we were in a steady situation, in the exact moment he started to spam rams. At the end I had to quit  the game because I couldn't do nothing against the spam (also because I had Glorious King's power bugged)

However, as a way to nerf them, rather than increasing the damage received by upgraded defensive structures (not all the factions can afford them), I'd like to see them limited to a number of 5 or either their recruitment time increased. To be honest, I think this nerf would be good for all siege engines, because most of the times, when the enemy starts spamming siege, you've basically lost the game

I attach the replay of the match (the ram spam starts at 1/3 of the game)

Concerning the Warg sentry, what about making it a slave-upgrade for sentry towers, besides Steel bolts?

[Idrial12]

First, I will say that ram rushing can be a serious problem. You can be on the offensive with map control, killing the enemies outer farms, and he can just ram spam your base and force you to backpedal. Its a cheap and effective tactic, I do think right now that rams overperform for their cost. Especially the 300 ones.

Completely agree with this. I've just lost a match with a friend, where we were in a steady situation, in the exact moment he started to spam rams. At the end I had to quit  the game because I couldn't do nothing against the spam (also because I had Glorious King's power bugged)

However, as a way to nerf them, rather than increasing the damage received by upgraded defensive structures (not all the factions can afford them), I'd like to see them limited to a number of 5 or either their recruitment time increased. To be honest, I think this nerf would be good for all siege engines, because most of the times, when the enemy starts spamming siege, you've basically lost the game

I attach the replay of the match (the ram spam starts at 1/3 of the game)

Concerning the Warg sentry, what about making it a slave-upgrade for sentry towers, besides Steel bolts?

I do not agree with that. why shoudl rams be limited? you can easily defend yourself against such a spam with 1 bat swords

[DrHouse93]

Yes, but that would require you to spend CP for units to defend all your buildings, and also, not all the swordsmen are equally effective (for example, Rohan Peasants, Mordor Orcs or Thrall Masters)

Furthermore, the problem is not a single ram, but when the enemy starts sending say 4 of them at the same building, while simultaneously sending other 4 at another one, and so on

[-Mandos-]

Same argument as always: You can get like 4-5 units of peasants per ram which destroy it in absolutly no time. So, if he sends like ten rams you can keep 10 units of peasants close to your base and destroy them all, have a money advantage elsewhere and another money advantage because your peasants didnt die but killed a lot or rams (=resources)...

[Elite KryPtik]

The problem isn't that the rams can be killed, the problem is how cost effective they are. Our entire argument is not based around the health of the ram. If you are on the offensive killing enemy things in the field and he sneaks 5 rams into your base, then what can you do? Nobody leaves 5 battalions of infantry to guard their freaking base while they are on the offensive! Not to mention, with army support rams can walk right through troops and deal horrific damage before you can kill them, even with troops hitting them they will get a hit or 2 of their own off and deal extreme damage to the structure. 10 rams + 10 basic infantry can destroy most bases regardless of defense.

[Draco100000]

Nobody leaves 5 battalions of infantry to guard their freaking base while they are on the offensive!

Why not? I mean if you know your enemie is going to attack your base you have to defend it no matter if you want to attack him it doesnt mean he shouldnt be able to attack yours, this is not a lineal game, this is strategy, just puting on ofensive a few melee battallions and gg rams are down, Your enemie wasted money and you can attack with no problem while you have some troops in the back.

[DrHouse93]

I agree that dealing with rams in lategame isn't so hard, the problem is another. First of all, the ram spam may be extremely effective even on mid game, when you're still building your army, your opponent can send 4 rams on a farm, 4 on another, 4 on another, and so on, therefore drawing your attention and thwarting economy and development, while you have to send your troops in several spots to kill those rams, or even worse, being forced to leave - for example - two swordsmen on a farm, two on another, two on another, and so on, which means a smaller army, fewer CPs and fewer resources

Furthermore, as Elite said (and I agree with him), even in lategame they can deal terrible damage, because they can walk with no problems between troops and smash a lot of buildings before you can make them harmless (the same happens with catapults: what can you do when your opponent has 7-8 of them - or even more - all clumped in the same spot, bombing your base, while his troops just stand around them preventing anyone from destroying them?)