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Autor Thema: Rohan Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 73223 mal)

Mor ho!

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #30 am: 14. Jan 2016, 09:21 »
Guys dont forget that rohan was made as all army can be mounted. Dont make from Rohan next ground faction. I really like the idea that Spears-throwers would mount. They would be as heavy cav. This kind of cav Rohan really need. He has the weakest cav, elite units are weak. Just devise some thing where enemies pikes will weakened.
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ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul.

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #31 am: 15. Jan 2016, 20:44 »
Zitat
I'm still a bit confused on how Armour exactly works, but hopefully you understand my intentions.
Then let me explain it, because it's pretty simply once you got the idea:
Armor EdainInfantryArmor
  Armor = DEFAULT             100%
  Armor = SLASH               100%
  Armor = PIERCE              100%       
  Armor = CAVALRY_RANGED      100%
  Armor = SPECIALIST           65%
  Armor = CRUSH               270%
  Armor = CAVALRY             135%
  Armor = SIEGE               100%
  Armor = FLAME               100%
  Armor = FROST               100%
  Armor = MAGIC               100%
  Armor = HERO                100%
  Armor = HERO_RANGED         100%
  Armor = STRUCTURAL          100%
  Armor = CHOP                150%
  Armor = URUK                100%
  Armor = WATER               135%
  FlankedPenalty            =  25%   
End

Armor EdainInfantryHeavyArmor
  Armor = DEFAULT             100%
  Armor = SLASH               100%
  Armor = PIERCE               65%       
  Armor = CAVALRY_RANGED      135%
  Armor = SPECIALIST           65%
  Armor = CRUSH               270%
  Armor = CAVALRY             135%
  Armor = SIEGE               100%
  Armor = FLAME               100%
  Armor = FROST               100%
  Armor = MAGIC               100%
  Armor = HERO                150%
  Armor = HERO_RANGED         150%
  Armor = STRUCTURAL          150%
  Armor = CHOP                100%
  Armor = URUK                150%
  Armor = WATER               135%
  FlankedPenalty            =  25%   
End
These are some pretty basic ArmorSets, I didn't check specifically, who is using them, but I guess normal swordsman (like Gondor-Soldiers) do. Without heavy armor the first ArmorSet is used, with the armor-upgrade only the second one. (Meaning of course only one set is active at the same time!)
The percentage-numbers mean how much damage the health pool actually takes after the unit gets hit with x-damage of one damage type. (E.g. if a unit with the first set takes 100 CRUSH damage (trampling damage), it loses 270 HP.)
You may e.g. see, that the values for URUK, CAVALRY_RANGED and STRUCTURAL are all getting worse, because those are used as armor piercing damage types. Also different units have generally stronger armor against what they are strong against. (E.g. pikes have high CRUSH (tramping) and CAVALRY (melee strikes) armor, meaning they take a low percentage of damage.)

DamageNugget ; A basic Nugget that just does damage
Damage = 40
Radius = 90
DelayTime = 300
DamageType = MAGIC
DeathType = EXPLODED
                DamageScalar    = 5% NONE +STRUCTURE ENEMIES
                DamageScalar    = 50% NONE +HERO ENEMIES
End
DamageNuggets (the entries in Weapons which do the damage) look more or less like that. Most is self explaining, the DamageScalar is now pretty important. In this case it makes buildings only take 5% of the 40 MAGIC damage mentioned above, while heroes take only half and everyone else receiving exactly 40 MAGIC damage (which is then evaluated in their armor, e.g. units with either the first or the second armor would both take 100% of the 40 MAGIC damage as a loss of HP).

Is this a better description? If so, I'm glad I could help. :D


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Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #32 am: 12. Apr 2016, 10:01 »
I think Axe Rohirrims' formation is undoubtedly stronger than regular Rohirrims one. The former get +50% armor and damage, at the expense of being unable to trample -which can also be a good thing if you are fighting pikes- while the latter get +25% damage at the expense of -25% armor. Actually I don't think their formation is even useful at all, I personally don't want to trade damage for armor for my riders. I'd suggest three options:
- Increase the damage gain and decrease the armor loss.
- Add a movement speed buff.
- Make Rohirrims slow down less when trampling (just like in the tournament fix).


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #33 am: 12. Apr 2016, 10:17 »
Yes it would probably be good to touch up on the ordinary Rohirrims formation, without making the Rohirrim of the Eastfold weaker. I think a speed buff is a good idea, but I also have a feeling like maybe they should function as a sort of glass cannon styled unit, where their formation makes them deal incredible trample damage at the cost of most of their armor. This way they would be absolutely devastating vs swords and archers, but would die instantly against pikes. This would give the Rohan player options for micro, making a mixed army of Rohirrim and using the normal ones to take down archers in the rear, while eastfold and westfold charged the pike army head on.

EDIT: Also, why does the Exile Camp only generate 10 resources per second? I thought it was supposed to generate 60 to help Rohans poor economy.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Apr 2016, 05:42 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #34 am: 10. Mai 2016, 15:06 »
Would like to make some suggestions for the Exile camp.

As I said in the Mordor Balance Discussion Thread, I would like to see a price increase on the Exile Camp.  It is too strong of an Building for costing 500, and this would also give factions such as Mordor to stand a chance against it if it is rushed.  It should at least cost the same as a Stables (600), though it might need to cost more then that due to how important it is. 

I find having Eomer available to be bought from it makes sense.  However, because he can also be bought from the Citadel, it makes making him for the Exile Camp kinda pointless.  That is like if the Khamul could be bought at the Mordor Citadel and Dol Guldur.  So I would like to see Eomer as an Exile Camp Exclusive.  When the King's Camp is purchased, then Eomer can also be bought at the Citadel. 

Now I actually have a question. I actually wanted to start a thread on this, but I didn't want 2 posts on such a similar topic.

Now that there is an Exile Camp, I think that changing up Corrupted Theoden's Banishment into Exile ability would actually be a good idea.  I think that when a Hero dies while Banished, it would make sense for the Hero to be recruitable at the Exile Camp.

Here is the problem though.  If this happens, the Risk vs Reward system of Banishment into Exile would be severely weakened, and I really like the system that is used now.  And I honestly can't think of a way for there to be a Risk vs Reward system, as well as moving Banished Heros to the Exile Camp.

So I'm going to ask for some help from the community with this one.  If you do agree that Banishment into Exile should move the Hero to the Exile Camp in some way, I would really like to hear suggestions that do that, while keeping the Risk vs Reward system intact.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #35 am: 10. Mai 2016, 15:42 »
I disagree with making it cost more. Instead, I would just like to see the leadership not stay on units once they leave the outpost, then it would be worth 500.

I agree with everything else you said, especially about Banishment into Exile. As for risk/reward, its still there, because you have to have the Exile Camp to be able to revive the hero. The enemy can very easily destroy it if you don't defend it.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Mogat

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #36 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:21 »
I think it would be good to put the exile-camp on at least 600 or even 700 (as haman said it should be definetly more expensive then a stables). If it stays at the current price then the building should have severly less health.
Moreover the 90s it gives the buff is waaaaaaay too long (30s at max are enough).


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Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #37 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:25 »
Even 30 seconds are too much imho, I'd go down to 20. If the buff itself was weaker, maybe the duration could be longer, but if the buff stays the same it needs to be a short one. Maybe it could be increased to 30 seconds after the camp is upgraded.

Hamanathnath

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #38 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:36 »
Well I don't think we should nerf the buff into the ground if the price of the Exile Camp is increased.  If it does get increased by enough, lowering its duration by too much just doesn't seem needed (though no matter what the price is at, I think it shouldn't be any higher then 60 seconds.  90 seconds is indeed too long)

@Elite KryPtik: I know that you know how strong Banishment into Exile can be.  If they are just moved to the Exile Camp, the Risk is significantly lower than the Reward, and as a result, that ability would be too strong.   

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #39 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:41 »
That adds on to the point Haman, once you use Banishment only idiots actually lose their heroes, because of the strength of the ability. That is why I honestly don't place much faith in there being a risk in the first place, banished heroes just wreck everything.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #40 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:47 »
I don't agree with your logic of "It's already strong, so let's make it incredibly Overpowered while we are at it."


Mogat

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #41 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:55 »
The point of the banishment-system is: You can only banish a hero ONCE. If the banished hero dies, you cannot revive him until corrumped theoden is on the field. As soon as you could revive a fallen hero, theoden isn't corruped anymore.
This is the point of the ability and not if somebody is idiotic or not to loose his hero (and in lategame even an non-idiotic player loose a hero sometimes^^).

If we would move fallen banished heroes to the exile-camp the whole system would be torn apart. In this case you could banish a hero two, three or more times without being punished for loosing him.

And I agree with elendil, there is no sense in a super long duration of a buff. If it is drastically shortened, maybe there would be some more dynamics/decison-making: do I return to the camp to renew the buff or do I continue fighting?


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Hamanathnath

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #42 am: 10. Mai 2016, 17:04 »
The point of the banishment-system is: You can only banish a hero ONCE. If the banished hero dies, you cannot revive him until corrumped theoden is on the field. As soon as you could revive a fallen hero, theoden isn't corruped anymore.
This is the point of the ability and not if somebody is idiotic or not to loose his hero (and in lategame even an non-idiotic player loose a hero sometimes^^).

If we would move fallen banished heroes to the exile-camp the whole system would be torn apart. In this case you could banish a hero two, three or more times without being punished for loosing him.
I agree with this.  But I think it would still make sense if the Hero did move to the Exile Camp after being Exiled.  That is why I asked if there is a way to have the best of both worlds (that is, moving the Hero to the Exile Camp, while also maintaining a penalty that makes the Risk vs Reward system similar to how it is now).




Odysseus

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #43 am: 10. Mai 2016, 17:19 »
The real strength of the camp when initially build should be to quickly churn out those Exiles, and provide a short buff that allows for dynamic decision making. 90 seconds is indeed too long. 20-30 seconds sounds reasonable. Either a longer duration and a weaker buff, or the other way around. As for the price, I want to say that I would not want to see it that much more expensive, since the charm lies in its cheap price. I think 600 is reasonable. That way, you have to consider, Stables or Exile Camp?

I also agree with what Mogat said about the exiled mechanic. If they could be recruited from the outpost, which is cheap and not impossible to defend because troops get a speed buff around it and it has defensive creeps, the risk factor would be drastically diminished.
I mean, yes, it would make sense, but it will screw over the mechanic and its uniqueness, imo. You get the massive 50% damage boost, which allows Rohan's heroes to deal with many of their more expensive counterparts, especially in 1v1 duels, but the downside should remain as substantial as it is now.

Although, Eomer in the Exile Camp sounds like a good idea, because he formed the Exile Camp, based on his well...exile, haha.
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Hamanathnath

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Re: Rohan Balance Discussion
« Antwort #44 am: 11. Mai 2016, 14:35 »
Well Eomer is already in the Exile Camp, which makes sense.  I just find it odd that he is also available in the Citadel from the beggining, because it makes his availability at the Exile Camp kinda pointless.

As for Banishment into Exile, I just would like to see a way for there both to be a penalty on the ability, and for it to involve the Exile Camp in some way, because, as Odysseus said, it would make sense to move to the Exile Camp once you're Exiled. 
But if there isn't a way of doing that, then I won't mind keeping the way Banishment into Exile works now.   It is a very unique mechanic that I like.