Rohan Balance Discussion

[Lord of Mordor]

Eomer could certainly be exclusive to the Exile camp. The reason we didn't do this is that he does feel like a core Rohan hero, so we weren't sure if you should need to have an outpost to build him. But if you'd prefer him only in the camp, we could do that.

The buff is longer than usual because we wanted it to be easily usable for fighting and aggressive maneuvers - it shouldn't already be half gone by the time you travel from the camp to the enemy (whereas statues are meant as a more defensive bonus and are also cheaper, hence their shorter duration). Other buffs like the warg howl or activated hero abilities usually last 30 seconds, but those can be used when the fight begins. As the exile camp also must account for travelling time, I think it's reasonable that it's longer than that. Though we could shorten it to 45 seconds perhaps?

The 30 second standard is actually something I've been meaning to get some opinions about. It's the length we currently use for most buffs like the Howl, the Iron Hills Guardian ability, and  so on. Do you feel that is a good length, or do you think the buffs have too much uptime that way?

Banishment to Exile must carry a strong penalty, I think, and I really like its unique drawback, so that is something I think we'll keep.

[Odysseus]

I think 30 seconds is a solid standard. The game is older and slower compared to more modern games. The larger battalion sizes also make micro less important compared to games that are more about positioning and micro such as League of Legends, Starcraft II or Dawn of War II. Since the game runs at 30 FPS, I think that longer lasting abilities with small buffs is a good way to compensate for the slower pace of the game. The stronger the buff, the shorter the duration I would say. Same applies for the other way around.

I don't think the 90 seconds timer is necessarily the problem, but it's the combination of buffs the camp gives. Increasing the speed of affected units is a very potent buff, and contradicts with a long, drawn out buff design-wise. I am not a mathematical genius, but I can imagine that the 25% speed buff + 90 seconds is enough time to cross the average map twice. Therefore, the reduction of the timer is arguably the easiest solution if the buffs are to remain unchanged.

[Hamanathnath]

Well considering how Rohan starts at the beggining of each match (Theoden Corrupted, and Eomer and his Riders Banished), I think it would make more sense if Eomer Started at the Exile Camp only.  Though once the King's Camp is purchased, then if possible, moving him to the Citadel as well would be a good idea, because I will agree that Eomer is one of Rohan's Core Heroes, considering his role as a character.

I also agree that the Exile Camp Buff should last longer then Statue buffs.  I agree  that traveling time should be taken into account, even with the Speed buff it applies.  But with the 90 second buff it currently has, there is very little chance of ever running out of it, especially for Cavalry (which Rohan has loads of).  So I would argue for 60 seconds for buff, though I might be the minority in that opinion.

I personally like the length of Active abilities currently.  Generally fights last longer then 30 seconds, so it is not like you always have the buff active. 

And I understand why Banishment into Exile must carry a strong penalty.  So I can live with it staying the same.

Thanks for the Feedback, Lord of Mordor

[Mogat]

I still think even 45 seconds would be way too long with the current buff it gives .

I don't understand the justification of it lasting longer, because of its agressive design. 30s is already really long, especially in combination with it giving a buff to a cavalry-faction ^^
In my opinion there is no sense/ tactical challenge in tanking up a buff and then having it for a long time. I would rather like to see a strong buff for a short time, than a weaker buff for a longer time (and if the buff should last 45s it should definitely be weakened).

Of course this is whole point is tremendously map depended, which makes it even harder to discuss. A proposition I would consider reasonable, would be to shorten the buff to 30s, but make the speed-buff of normal infantery (cavalry stays as it is now) a little higher, so the gameplay would be a little faster. This would encourage harass and shorten travel-time while leaving the opponent the opportunity to take a fight in which the buff would not last the entire time and overpower everything else.
So I think speed is what differenciates an "agressive" ability from a "defensive" (if you can call it like this) and not an endelss duration of it.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Statues don't recruit cavalry in about five seconds. Statues don't generate resources either. And statues give the (arguably) weaker buff, since both Rohirrim and peasants profit so so much from the added experience. Even 30 seconds is an incredibly long duration for this buff, while 90 is just bonkers. A duration that long is basically permanent, because you can do whatever you want with your units and it won't take as long as the duration of the buff - which means that if they survive whatever you're doing, you can just go back and refresh it. With the speedbuff even your infantry can get to most settlements within 30 seconds (example Fords of Isen: outpost to the safe settlement near the ford, roughly 30s). That is already awesome! You don't need to have another minute of leadership bonus there. And I'm not even talking about cavalry here, because with Rohirrim it just gets ridiculous...


Comparing active abilities given to units to a stationary buff in this context doesn't make a lot of sense imho. Yes, they can be activated exactly when you need them, but then they are on cooldown. The exile camp's buff is permanent, as long as you're in range of it.

I'm personally fine with the 30s duration for abilities, since you need a bit of time to let them do work. If the abilities themselves were stronger, the duration would need to go down, but currently it works out quite well I think.

[Hamanathnath]

I think Mogat hit the Nail on the Head with this:

Of course this is whole point is tremendously map depended, which makes it even harder to discuss.

But I will stick with think 60 seconds is a good amount of time on it.  Yes, on smaller maps, you will most likely have the buff more then you won't, but you still have to leave combat in order to get it back.  And remember that most of us have also called for a price increase on the Exile Camp.  If a price increase should occur, then I think Nerfing this buff so much  would be a bad idea.
Statues are very cheap buildings, and have a hero discount, so the Exile Camp having a stronger buff makes sense, even with its other added benefits, and especially if there is a price increase on the Exile Camp.  At least, that is my opinion on the subject.

[Elite KryPtik]

I would say 60-45 seconds would be a good time limit on the Exile Camp buff, especially if it gets a cost increase, which I personally don't agree with. That's part of the usefulness of the camp, is that its so cheap to build. Remember, to get anything other than the camp itself you still have to pay, at minimum, 280 resources per unit, and to access its more useful features you have to upgrade it for 1k, and then pay even more money for more troops. The 500 cost is just a gateway to unlock units that cost more money.

Its not like its Dale(which generates WAY more resources by the way right out of the gate) with the ability to tank and kill enemies on its own, if its not defended it will fall easily. The defensive slaves around it are not a real threat, even after its upgraded, so if you don't actively defend the outpost then the enemy can easily harass it. I think calling for a price increase is just a bit lazy to be honest, all you have to do is go and harass the enemy to get them to leave the vicinity of the camp, then destroy it. My two cents on the matter 

[Lord of Mordor]

I agree, the Exile Camp is meant to be balanced around the fact that it's a cheap early game option, which makes it unique among outposts. I wouldn't mind raising its cost to 600, but not much higher than that - if it's too strong for that price, I'd rather nerf it.

Bringing the duration down to 45 sounds like a good compromise to me. We could also remove the experience boost from the buff, as that's not really essential for helping with early game aggression.

Thanks for your feedback on ability durations We'll be sticking with 30 seconds as a baseline then.

[Adrigabbro]

I agrre, the Exile Camp is meant to be balanced around the fact that it's a cheap early game option, which makes it unique among outposts. I wouldn't mind raising its cost to 600, but not much higher than that - if it's too strong for that price, I'd rather nerf it.

Bringing the duration down to 45 sounds like a good compromise to me. We could also remove the experience boost from the buff, as that's not really essential for helping with early game aggression.

Thanks for your feedback on ability durations We'll be sticking with 30 seconds as a baseline then.

Great news. I agree with removing the experience bonus if you chose to bring the duration down to 45 instead of the standard 30.

[Odysseus]

Sounds like a good setup to test. Looking forward to that, as well!

[Tirano]

i think Gamling neet to get a high cost, like 1100 so people dont rush him.. in some maps rush gamiling is so op 

[Elite KryPtik]

Increase Gamlings cost and you take away one of Rohans biggest advantages. Just because you can Rush Gamling doesn't make him OP, if the enemy plays smart they can slow you down from getting creeps, which can really hurt your economy, or go off and take other creeps to compensate for the loss of the creeps that you steal. Also, Gondor can rush Beregond, which is a perfect counter to Gamling.

[Tirano]

i know taht.. since I saw you do taht i  implemented in my game and i think taht in some maps is extremely op like bukland for example... i really like the Gamling rush but in maps like bukland is unbalence.. your oponent dont have a chance

[Elite KryPtik]

Sure he does. Instead of hitting you head on he can go around and harass, or you can get help from a teammate to deal with the Gamling rush.

[Elite KryPtik]

I wanted to discuss Theodens health points after he is cured. For the longest time I couldn't understand why he always seemed to die so quickly, then I had a look at his health bar, and discovered he only has 3600 health at level 1. This is the same health points that cheap heroes like Wulfgar have, yet Theoden is worth 2800 after he has been cured. So I think something may be off there, and wanted to gather opinions from the community on the subject. I am at my place of work while I post this, so I can't compare health until I get home, but it seems rather strange that the King of Rohan should be so easy to kill, without even taking the cost into account.