Rohan Balance Discussion

[Julio229]

That's true, Théoden dies so quickly. It doesn't fit for a Hero that costs so much, and his health should be buffed.

[Morwereth]

He had a passive called "hero of the Helm's Deep" that used to give him %100 more armor. I wonder if this bonus still affects him since he still gets his battle armor after level 5.

Leveling him up is bigger issue imo, especially if you put him in the same group with other cavalry battalions. It would be nice if he got little experience by nearby unit's kills.

[Elite KryPtik]

He does still get that bonus to my knowledge, but even late game he dies the first out of all of Rohans heroes. I agree that he seems to take FOREVER to level up.

[Odysseus]

When it comes down to ''feeling'' Theoden's performance in the mod, you could definetely say that he is underperforming, and that his health in his early levels is under-performing quite heavily. Especially when he is before level 4-5.

Unfortunately, I have trouble seeing a middle ground. The 3 PP spell may seem far away, but it can hit at the same as a Nazgul if you save up for it, and Theoden poops on Nazgul, doesn't he?

I think Theoden's early game, especially for a hero that costs so much to revive (2800 without any real mass slayer abilities!) is lackluster. A health buff might be worth testing, or some armour buff, or better scaling, it's a little tough to say for that matter, unfortunately. Do you guys think a health buff would be sufficient?

[Elite KryPtik]

Theoden does not "poop" on Nazgul to my knowledge, as they are hero killers, they defeat him quite easily. He can be beaten by most any hero in the mod in 1v1 right now when cured. I think a health buff would be fair, something in the order of 6000 total health points would match his cost and role nicely I think. As he is meant to lead his forces into battle, its hard for him to do when he dies in seconds against the enemy

[Morwereth]

He can be beaten by most any hero in the mod in 1v1 right now when cured. I think a health buff would be fair, something in the order of 6000 total health points would match his cost and role nicely I think. As he is meant to lead his forces into battle, its hard for him to do when he dies in seconds against the enemy

I agree with health increase. It would also improve his performance when he gets the ring. He loses armor and speed after all 

However, he should be vulnerable against hero killers still. Besides, he was 71 years old during WoR so making him very tanky wouldn't be lore wise.

[Odysseus]

Hmm, okay. Well, I am not sure. Unless I run into a wall of pikes, when I charge down a line with a fully upgraded Rohirrim army and Theoden amongst them, the rest usually gets torn to shreds, so that usually does the trick for me . However, don't quote me on this, but I think because of Rohan's ability to unlock Theoden so early into a fighting form, without paying any resources for it, which can be quite a big deal depending on the situation, that Theoden has very different stats and scaling compared to other faction supporters or whatever his role may be. The Sauron of the good guys.

Also, Elite, he can poop on Nazguls, check this out, the last part: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9yzKICujN0

[Elite KryPtik]

That video shows the hero batallion, not a single nazgul. Any of the single Nazgul are much stronger individually because of their armor, and I do not believe he wins against them.

Regarding him being 70, have a little read of this:

"But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.

At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before:

    Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden!
    Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
    spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
    a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
    Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains.

    Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City."

The think the old fellow is pretty spry after all, isn't he?

[Odysseus]

It was, of course, a joke, good Sir KryPtik .

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, there isn't anything in your post to indicate it was a joke to me, but no harm done nontheless

[Odysseus]

I suppose the laughing emoji in the spoiler part was not clear enough. Noted for future reference.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

I think a health buff would be fair, something in the order of 6000 total health points would match his cost and role nicely I think.

So you just want to give him more health than any other hero in the game?^^
Assuming you're talking about level one, that is just way over the top. For future reference, here is how much health heroes have in 4.0, without scouts:

• Tanky heroes like Boromir, Karsh, Hama start at 5500 hp.
• "Standard" heroes like Aragorn, Celeborn, Eomer or the Mouth of Sauron start at 4500 hp.
• Ranged heroes, Nazgul and certain exceptions (Gandalf, Theoden) start at 3500.

Gandalf has less health than other heroes because of his devastating abilities and because he has access to Shadowfax. In the hands of a good player, you'll never be able to kill a lvl 5+ Gandalf without the use of something like Lurtz' crippling shot just because you can't catch him. Same thing goes for Theoden, who is one of the strongest support heroes in the game and also has access to a horse. What you quoted, Elite, is perfectly incorporated with his charge at lvl 10: That one last push where Theoden and all allies around him are unstoppable. Other than that, he is still very much an old man.

Having said that, 2800 (and three spellpoints) is just way too much money for Theoden. As I've stated before I'd reduce his cost to something like 2000, maybe more if his leadership for units gets buffed to 20%/20%. Increasing his health is the wrong way to go imo.

[Odysseus]

Also possible. A 800 cost reduction is quite huge though. Could we try a smaller one first? Maybe 2400?

[-DJANGO-]

2400 seems fair. It still has to be painful, regarding that you got a great hero for a cheaper price (800+3spellpoint).

Im against a simple health buff - at the beginning theoden should be as vulnerabel as he is now because he gets his armor at Lvl 5 i think...

How about to give his Lvl4 ability (atm only Experience for troops) an extra attack boost (like the Stormattack from bfme1) - nothing big ´because its only lvl 4, but that would emphasize his Leadership Role. With that in mind you would have a near goal to reach (Lvl4) apart from his passive leadership and his Lvl10. What yall thinking about that?

[Odysseus]

I think it sounds interesting. Would make sure to give an original buff, something that Theoden's leadership does not already provide. Also, I think it might be worth reducing the amount of experience troops gain if combat stat improvements are to be included. E.g. Instead of only 4X experience, they gain triple or double experience and 15-25% speed. A counter-weight basically, because quadruple exp is phenomenal already.