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Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 79366 mal)

Lord of Mordor

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Mordor Balance Discussion
« am: 24. Okt 2015, 01:59 »
In this thread, you can discuss balancing issues with the Mordor faction. If you feel a balance topic is so big it deserves its own thread, you're free to create one, but for smaller points this thread might be useful.
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Okt 2015, 07:05 von DieWalküre »
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LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #1 am: 13. Nov 2015, 22:08 »
Hello! :) I am not sure if it only with Mordor but I must say that their Bombard Ships do absurd amount of DMG to Units!

I just played with Lorien against Hard Mordor and not only the AI Spammed like 20 Shhips of Blowing Ships and Bombard Ships but tha DMG the Bombard do to Units is crazy! I marched with a Big Army and of course some of them move in close gruops and just 1 Shot Kills the Lorien Basic Units and leaves Mirkwood ones with like 10% Health!!

I do not know if all this is intended,but I really think it is way OP!!And thei Range is just way too big!!Like they can cover 20% of the Map Distance and Kill everyone with 1 Shot! :)

I think they should be nerfed a little especialyl Against Units! :)
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CragLord

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #2 am: 3. Dez 2015, 23:35 »
I just tested a funny fight, Mollock on lvl 1 was defeated by neutral cave troll.
Is this ok? xD

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #3 am: 4. Dez 2015, 07:13 »
I just tested a funny fight, Mollock on lvl 1 was defeated by neutral cave troll.
Is this ok? xD
I just tested this myself and I confirm, both started attacking at appoximately the same time and whil I did win the trol brought Mollok down to a silver of an hp (empty bar with 1 hit left before KO)
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Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #4 am: 4. Dez 2015, 15:15 »
Mollok is a mass slayer. It's because he is so expensive that he can actually still win against units that he is supposed to be ineffective against. Logically speaking, it is quite strange and funny haha. I mean, he is supposed to be the general/king/leader of trolls, right? And he almost gets stomped by a regular cave troll, his potential subordinate. Indeed, quite funny.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #5 am: 4. Dez 2015, 20:32 »
Well, I think it's not OK.

Sorry guys if I sound like such a pissy, but it's almost the same debate as Wormtongue (I say almost because I can understand, balance speaking, why Mollok has such low single targets damage). Grima can 1v1 Eomer (or almost) just because the latter is a mass slayer but in LOTR Eomer could kill ten Grima in the same time.

I'm not saying the lore should overcome balance ; my point is we have to find the best solution for the sake of both. As I suggested in the Isengard topic, I think that Grima issue can be adressed by transferring his trength from his basic attacks to his abilities.

Back to the topic, this one is Mollok is much more complicated because I'm aware you can't simply increase his attack damage. How about he does additional damage only to trolls ? Or trolls deal very low damage to him?


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CragLord

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #6 am: 4. Dez 2015, 21:18 »
Well, Mollock isn't so great as mass slayer, his prices is high, and while we playing with him on lower level's he is simply too weak I think.
Concerning main problem vs neutral cave troll, reason lies in attack speed of cave troll in this particular case, I think there is nothing wrong with damage this hero does. They both deal same damage one to other per hit, but problem is neutral cave troll has much faster attack speed. So, of course we can't change attack speed of neutral unit because of this particular situation, so I am also for some armor buff against troll melee damage. Simply I think that Mollock as it is implemented in game should be stronger individually then any other troll in game, and from level 1 of course.
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Dez 2015, 15:22 von CragLord »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #7 am: 5. Dez 2015, 05:57 »
I've found Mollock to be more a pain then helpful and so I don't usually buy him. He tends to charge straight into enemy lines, trample through units (losing HP) and then he is stuck in the middle of the enemy army and by the time you can make it back he's at a silver of an hp and hasn't done anything noteworthy.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #8 am: 5. Dez 2015, 10:59 »
Indeed, Mollok is quite terrible, especially for the price. He should have immunity or at least serious resistance against trample revenge damage(try trampling through some Tower Guards, it aint pretty ;)) and much higher health, hes a freakin troll king! As for damage, I think his AoE is quite substantial and makes up for the low damage, his problem is health and how easily he is singled out by enemy heroes, due to his size.
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Dez 2015, 13:29 von Elite KryPtik »
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CragLord

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #9 am: 5. Dez 2015, 15:36 »

Yes, I also agree about that trample "problem" with pikes.
AOE is substantial ofc, about hp, I think they are ok as hp, problem is probably in armor/defence, which is also "silly" situation, because he looks like mountain with those plates of armor etc.
I have this feeling simply because he isn't only weak in comparison with other heroes, also against single units like trolls (as I had chance to test randomly in game...).
I don't know about vannila Rogash, but I think that hero was also similar in look, mountain with great armor plates etc. But aslo in synergy of that look, he had some armor buffing ability which helped him a lot in tank role. Simply it was in synergy of look and appearance of such hero.
No matter about "look" of this troll hero, I think as the most people that he isn't balanced yet.

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 5. Dez 2015, 16:23 von CragLord »

Garlodur

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #10 am: 7. Dez 2015, 18:07 »
I have several problems with Mollok.
One is that I never seem to find a particular use for him. As a mass slayer other units are more useful, such as Nazgul with their debuffs, or simply a dozen hordes of orcs. For good measure, you can buy 8 battalions of orc archers for his price, who do a lot more damage to those units that are send at you en masse (standard infantry).
Consequence is that he barely gains experience, even more so in combination with archers as he's too slow. He doesn't gain useful abilities till later.

So I'd like to suggest that Mollok spawns with his War Hammer, this makes him a building destroyer that is a lot harder to kill than catapults or battering rams, so quite dangerous when facing an enemy outpost at a chokepoint. In turn, as he gains experience, he'll switch to his long sword and rages out on pestering infantry.

What do you think?

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #11 am: 3. Jan 2016, 20:21 »
!Disclaimer! this is not meant to be a crying post. !Disclaimer!

I wanna open a debate: what do you think about Mordor currently?

I personnally have great trouble playing against Mordor. I feel like you can't afford any failure/wrong decision at all while Mordor can spam thoughtlessly orcs and make dozen mistakes but still win the game.
It is particularly true with Dwarves and, to a minor extent thanks to how strong Beornings are, Lorien.

One of the most frustrating thing is the 2 pp tower with archers on top spell. They have it so quickly that you often have to back off early in the game.

So I'm asking you: what do you think? How do you play against Mordor?


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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #12 am: 3. Jan 2016, 20:53 »
Dito. I also find Mordor difficult to play against.
In my opinion Mordor should make the main damage only with Trolls, Heros or Elite-Units. Orcs should only make noticeable damage with Buff-Spells, Hero-Leadership or with Bannercarriers (i.e. Lvl. 2 or higher).
The flank damage of normal Sword-Orcs (0 Res) should be very very very low (especially against Riders).
At the moment a Mordor player must very often just spam Orcs & equip his command points, to do enough damage and pressure.
I think there is still enough space to customize the strengh and life of the normal 0 Res Orcs, so that they can fit their role as Buffer-Unit...
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Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #13 am: 3. Jan 2016, 20:57 »
I think it is generally known that Mordor is the most solid overall faction. First, the Orc-spam is mostly a pain in the early-game since you have so little crowd control in that stage with most factions and you are spending resources on getting your economy going. Secondly, Mordor benefits from the snowballing effect. Thirdly, while you are throwing resources against the wall, Mordor replaces most of the casualties for free.
The majority of the factions cannot withstand Mordor in a direct slug-fest, especially Lothlorien and Rohan. Mordor's only real weakness that I can think of is their economy. Hit the eco, and they will have trouble getting out heroes, siege engines and Cirith Ungol units. Unfortunately, it is easier said than done.

Furthermore, I would personally push that Barricade thing to a 3 PP spell, but that would break the symmetry in the Spellbook, so I don't know what the team would say.

Frankly, any form of crowd control and AOE via Spells or Heroes is always useful against Mordor. Also, Archer spam can be useful, but it is risky and one-dimensional. I think Mordor needs some tweaks and Lothlorien as well, but what exactly, I find hard to say without shaking up the current ''meta''.

However, there is one tactic that I noticed is useful against Mordor (especially with Elves). Try to lure them into more narrow passages on the map, and engage them there. Mordor's army is the best when fighting like a big mass, often surrounding your units and whatnot, but if you take a chokepoint, you are largely nullifying their strength in numbers.

Edit: Oh, and what DJANGO said. I agree with that.
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #14 am: 3. Jan 2016, 21:31 »
I agree that Mordor is the strongest faction, while I still do like playing with them. Major weaknesses of Mordor such as an overall basic hero roster, no walls around their camp and weaker units are all eclipsed by the continuous orc spam. The way I see it one basic battalion of a faction's infantry should take out between 1.5 to 2 orc battalions. The problem that the team is facing, I think, is that since the free orcs are the basic infantry of Mordor making them too weak would make Mordor the weakest faction. A possible solution that I would see would be to add another basic infantry unit and nerf the orcs.

On the other hand, I think it is possible to counter most of the issues. The humongous force, the many heroes and the need to monitor the camp continuously means that the player must spend each second of it's time micromanaging something. The heroes, standing out, are easily picked off and the troops are often left to their own goodwill.

I'll have a test, normally I can pit two random AI against myself as Mordor and beat them, I'll pit myself against two Brutal Mordor AI and gradually increase the handicap until I'm beaten and see how it plays out. I think it is key to remember that, only as an AI, it doesn't benefit from the half price for the basic orcs.
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