Mordor Balance Discussion

[Hamanathnath]

So.......  Mordor vs Angmar........

Honestly, there isn't much else to say about this matchup that hasn't been already said.  Wight, Werewolves, and Carn Dum Bowmen are near impossible to kill as Mordor. 

Now I'll be continuing this discussion in the Angmar balance discussion later on today, but as for changes to Mordor to make this slightly more fair, Fellbeats should be able to pick up Wights, or at least deal a lot of damage to them, because right now it takes around 8-10 hits from a Fellbeast to kill 1 Wight, which in my opinion is ridiculous.

And I strongly recommend that Mordor pike have a price reduction to 200.  They cost too much for how weak they are.  Rohan Farmhands cost less and are stronger.  It would also fit Mordor's theme of spamming weak units at a low price (or no price at all). 

[Odysseus]

Alright, let's see.

Currently, on my end, the Carn-Dûm Pikemen are still reflecting attacks they should not be reflecting, which has been reported as a bug.

If what you say is true about the Fellbeast, then I completely agree. Flying units are still not up to snuff in the mod, in my opinion. They should be stronger against both siege and monsters. I wonder when the team will be willing to test such changes. Here's hoping haha.
Although one thing, wights are very vulnerable to arrows and heroes, especially arrows. I don't know how often you get Orc achers or Black Uruk archers when you play against Angmar, but when you see someone go extensively on the wights, try that combination. While your orcs are holding the line, have some 2-3 archers among them and have them focus down the barrow wights together, one by one. Each barrow wight should die fairly quickly that way. Barrow wights are slow, so you'll have moments where you can play the micro game against them, which will be in your favour. It might just work for you, it has worked for me a couple of times.

Finally, the Farmhands, were they drafted or in their default state? If they were drafted, they should be stronger than the mordor pikemen, unlike in their default state. At least, if I am not mistaken of course. I suppose I could live with a small cost reduction for the mordor pikes, but keep in mind that the team will probably keep it steady and reduce the costs of the pikemen on the Mordorian outposts as well, in order to keep the design consistent. I am not sure if this is good or not.

[Hamanathnath]

Well yes, archers are strong on Wights.  But not only do they require a lot of Mirco, which isn't the easiest thing to do in Competative play, but Werewolves are good against pretty much anything Mordor has besides Cirith Ungol pikes, but they can still kill those pretty easily if you just be careful not to run face first into them. 

And to my knowledge, both Peasants and Farmhands have 250 health per unit when NOT drafted, while the Orcs have 180 per unit.  Yes, the orcs have a slight number advantage, but I also think Farmhand have a slightly high damage as well, though that is just a guess.  I have no problem with Farmhands being stronger then Orc Pikes, I just find it odd that the also cost less.

[Elite KryPtik]

Yeah, I would say bringing the pike cost down for Mordor by 100 might be ok. You have to keep the discount Mordor can get on their orcs in mind Haman, that already makes their pikes much cheaper.

Regarding the Angmar vs Mordor balance issue, its still there. If 2 player of equal skill were to butt heads the Angmar would always win. Mordor simply has nothing late game to counter them. Their early game remains quite strong, but once the wights and werewolves start hitting the field, its over. Werewolves are super fast and can slaughter archers wholesale in seconds, while wights can tear through anything else. Even heroes lose to wights once they are level 5, and werewolves make short work of heroes too. The only thing Mordor has t counter Angmar are Mumakil, and even those can be flanked and killed by werewolves. I think with some of the nerfs applied as suggested in the Angmar thread, this problem would become much less prevalent. I also definitely agree that Mordor Fellbeasts should be able to pick up Wights, they are a single unit but that shouldn't make them immune to fellbeasts. At the very least they should deal almost a full lifebar of damage to wights.

[d0m0a]

I would suggest to reduce the orcs' cost when recruiting them in the barricades. The Orcs can stay be free, bu the Orc Pikemen could cost only 100 resources and the Orc Archers cost 200 resources. After all, the Mordor game style is spam a huge army of weak units at low cost. Making Orc Pikemen and Arches cost the same or more as other faction units defeats the reason Mordor's strategy of recruit troops with few resources.

The Orcs recruited in Minas Morgul/Dol Guldir/Cirith Ungol barrack can maintain the price, after all, they're updated orcs and are stronger than the basic recruited orcs.

Also you could raise the price for recruit Siege Weapons and Trolls for balance the faction after of reduce the orc's prices.

[Walküre]

I would suggest to reduce the orcs' cost when recruiting them in the barricades. The Orcs can stay be free, bu the Orc Pikemen could cost only 100 resources and the Orc Archers cost 200 resources. After all, the Mordor game style is spam a huge army of weak units at low cost. Making Orc Pikemen and Arches cost the same or more as other faction units defeats the reason Mordor's strategy of recruit troops with few resources.

The Orcs recruited in Minas Morgul/Dol Guldir/Cirith Ungol barrack can maintain the price, after all, they're updated orcs and are stronger than the basic recruited orcs.

Also you could raise the price for recruit Siege Weapons and Trolls for balance the faction after of reduce the orc's prices.

As this is a very topical balance-based suggestion, I think it should be better if this thread were moved in the proper Mordor balance suggestions thread. I will thus merge everything with that topic.

MERGED

[Hamanathnath]

Gorthuar's Werewolves seem to be a lot worse then the Angmar Werewolves right now.  They have more then double the Resource cost of Angmar's Werewolves (2000 instead of 900), cost 30 more Command Points (120 Command Points instead of 90 Command Points), and have less health (5000 instead of 7000).  So I think Gorthuar's Werewolves need some buffs to pretty much everything, because with how much they cost, they should be better then Angmar Werewolves.  Though a price reduction would also help, because 2000 resources might be the highest cost for any Unit in the game.

[Odysseus]

I thought the highest price for a unit was the Black Riders heroic battalion? Anyway, I would agree with a price decrease and perhaps a small increase, to the same amount as the Angmar Werewolves. Not much more though, since Sauron can support Werewolves.

[Hamanathnath]

Oh yeah forgot about the Black Riders . Though I personally see them closer to being a Hero then a Unit because you can only get one of them.  But yeah, I guess Gorthuar's Werewolves are the second highest costing unit. 

And yeah, I'd like to see their pricing and Stats similar to the Angmar Werewolves, and maybe a bit higher because they are an extremely late game unit.  Though not too much stronger, but you are right in that Sauron can make them stronger.

[koh11]

Can we do something about Mollock? He feels absurdly useless. I would like to see him being one of those great trolls Mordor can use effectively without dying running into one batt of pikes.

[The_Necromancer0]

Have a look at this thread.

[Hamanathnath]

Just wanted to say before I comment of your ideas, while I am a big supporter of people who try to help balance the mod, it is very important to do that in a way that will help the everyone understand your ideas.  Therefore, it is important for people who post here to explain why they think that changes such as these are beneficial to the mod.  Unfortunately, most of the ideas in this post don't have any sort of reason behind why they implemented.  As a result, while I can't speak for the Edain Team themselves as I am not part of that team, I personally think it is much more beneficial to both the Edain Team and other who read this thread if ideas have reasoning to support them.

And that leads into my thoughts on the ideas presented here.  A lot of these ideas, because of the lack of detail, are changes that I really can't agree.  Though I will a mention a specific few.   

- The reason why Drummer Trolls cost much more the Mountain Trolls is because of the system the Edain Team has in place.  Drummer Trolls are considered elite monsters, and the price that has been set to all elite monsters right now is 1200.  Meanwhile, Mountain Trolls are standard monsters, making them cost 600.  It is a system I personally really like because it is a easier way to come up with a balance for units.   

- Mountain Trolls should not have to walk everywhere like they did in BFME1.  I find it to be a more of a tedious and annoying mechanic then something that makes you have to be strategic.

- The Witch-King is already the highest costing Hero in the entire mod if you count his armour upgrade, so a price increase seems really unneeded for him.

- If all the starting citadels gave 50 resources instead of 40, it would not give the defender any better chance because the attacker gets the exact same bonus income.

- Shelob can already paralyze units with her web ability, and already is a pretty great summon in general, so adding another paralyze to her spawning would make that Spellbook power too strong in my opinion.

[calixoxx]

I think Mordor Fellbeasts are too easily killed and too vulnerable to unupgraded arrows. I also believe Fellsbeats (and other flying units in the game) should be more effective vs buildings and siege as well. The fact that an enormour Fellbeast or Eagle barely does anything vs a catapult is a little silly.

I also think Mordor pikes should be reduced to 200 resources to give them a chance vs cavalry early game.

Trolls have gone from being too OP to being too weak. The costs are good, but even a fully armored troll rolls over from just a touch of a pike. It's a little crazy. It makes such a costly unit nearly worthless late game unless you micro and harass the opponent's eco. Right now it's practically senseless to send a troll in with your army to attack unless the opponent has decided they don't need pikes ^^

I think maybe a solution to the troll issue would also be buffing Mollok. I never use Mollok for his cost. Yes, he is a good hero killer, but otherwise not worth his cash and easily killed. Maybe he could offer a troll armor boost. You would kill two issues with one stone that way =]

[The_Necromancer0]

Perhaps the Fellbeasts could benefit from a slight health boost but really not much since it's a very fine line between buffing them slightly and making them overpowered. I also agree that it would be nice if flying units dealt more damage to the siege units but no to buildings, that would not be balanced.

The trolls at the moment are too powerful, their price has been lowered and their stats increased meaning that with a full discount they can be easily spammed and with a bit of micro become a deadly war machine.

Definitely agree with Mollok, he's needed a buff since day one.

[Elite KryPtik]

The thing about fellbeasts is that they can dismount, effectively removing their only weakness. If your enemy has a solid sword army, surprise him with Fellbeasts. If mostly archesr, go cav mode and trample. If mostly pikes, foot mode and slaughter. They are fine as is, especially with their INSANE debuffs.

Trolls are op against most factions right now, certain factions, namely Dwarves, Rohan and Lorien, wreck trolls, but most others really struggle.

Mollok sucks, no argument here, he needs a buff.