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Mordor Balance Discussion

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Smeargollum:
Ok everyone, I think it is time to talk a bit about Mordor balance once again :)
First of all I have to say that I really like it that Mordor is no longer a base camping, q + a-move faction, but still there are some issues.
Right now Mordor is incredible strong in every phase of the game, not only in the late game but also in the early game.
In my opinion there are two things that make Mordor to this extremely strong faction even in the early game:

1. Trolls: They got a huge damage buff of roughly 30%, which is really a lot. With that buff they destroy swords, cavalry or even pikes when they don’t run into them (which can be just an engine related thing if they stop in time or not, not even speaking of off-host-delay). So all together trolls are in my opinion and in the opinion of many other player too strong at the moment because they just kill everything.
--> Solution: Undo the buff (which was imo not necessary since the reason why nobody built them in 4.5.2 was not that they are weak but that the game around it was bad for trolls).

2. Overseers: Even though I love the idea and mechanic of them I think that the buff is a bit too strong at the moment because you can just slaughter enemy units with units you didn’t even pay money for very early on in the game.
--> Solution: Weaken the buff of the overseers (not too much but just a little bit so that you can’t form an early battering ram off orcs with some trolls and crush certain factions).

I think with such changes Mordor would get weaker in the eg-mg which would allow the opponent to get in a better/not hopeless position to get in the later game but still Mordor wouldn’t need to camp around in the base and do nothing on the map as in 4.5.2.

What do you think?
 
Greetings,
Smeargollum

Seleukos I.:
Hi :)
I certainly agree that Mordor is somewhat strong atm. I also agree that resetting the troll change would be a good option. Trolls were really good in 4.4.1 and, as Gollum said, them not being used in 4.5.2 isn't wasn't because trolls were bad, but rather because Mordor couldn't get any mapcontral/discount.
So I really like the idea of nerfing their damage (and maybe buff their armor vs pikes again, to make it easier to use them off-host). Lowering their damage would mean you could counter trolls not only with pikes+archers but also with cav (at least as Long as it's only one troll), which would be especially relevant for Isengard's eg, but also other faction.

Concerning overseers: I'm not sure if they are really op without the super strong trolls.
If anything I'd maybe nerf the damage buff of the active ability for swords.

Best regardes,
Seleukos

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Trolls have not only been buffed since 4.5. Their damage against buildings was reduced by 25%, they take ~25% more damage from pikes and they can no longer reach level two to unlock their heal through the Influence of Sauron. The buff to their damage was mostly directed at their interaction with cavalry, which is already pretty much always fantastic against Mordor and used to be able to hunt down trolls as well. Considering trolls are more expensive and slower than riders and are supposed to be a least a soft counter to cav, this change was necessary.

I agree that trolls are now incredibly powerful in the very early game, their life gets a lot harder once both pikes and archers are out. That being said, it's certainly possible they are too good for their cost and cp in those fights. From my personal experience, I've been able to deal with trolls as the game went on, but this may very well be dependant on the matchup.



--- Zitat von: Smeargollum am  5. Jul 2020, 13:07 ---Weaken the buff of the overseers (not too much but just a little bit so that you can’t form an early battering ram off orcs with some trolls and crush certain factions).

--- Ende Zitat ---
Which factions do you have in mind here?

Smeargollum:

--- Zitat ---Which factions do you have in mind here?

--- Ende Zitat ---

Lorien for example would need bears to counter orcs but they get hardcountered by trolls and the normal Lorien warriors have no change against overseer orcs so they have some troubles there.
Angmar has in my opinion also quite a hard time against overseers in combination with trolls since wolves are not really worth it against free units and we all know that thralls are a bit random (sometimes the thrall/ -> the entire batt, just dies immediately). And it is very hard to counter trolls early on because you have only weak pikes and no archers.
....some people (not me) might even say that disgusting factions like Ered Luin have a hard time against them because their guardians are not so great at fighting.
I also think that Isen has a really hard time against trolls because they can't get pikes at all and counters like Sharku that worked in 4.4.1 don't work anylonger because trolls are just to strong for him. And so trolls can deal huge amounts of damage against Isengard... and then most of the time Lurtz and Ugluk strike back  :P

I also always liked the mechanic that you could engage a singele trolls with cav and chase him down but as soon as there are two it becomes extremely cost inefficent. That is not possible as before from my experience ... also the random fear effect is not good in my opinon.

Furtheron you are right that you can counter trolls quite well once you got out pikes and archers but I personally think that they are too good in the early game while they are really not good in the mid game (which makes many players delete the troll cage so that we seldom see battle trolls ^^).

So all together I feel like trolls are not in a perfect spot at the moment:
They are op/very very strong in the early game and force the opponent to make a pike-archer clump (until he has enough to splitt pikes and archers). And as soon as the counter is on the field you can basically not use them a lot anymore and you only a-move orcs across the map.

That are my feelings about some problems of Mordor. What do you think about it?

JoJo(TheRealOne):
Hello my fellow Edainers

Time to talk about Mordor again. I have been playing 1v1 more regularly again lately and together with other good and active players I came to the conclusion that Mordor is still too strong.

My understanding of Mordor as a faction is, that they are weak in the early game and grow stronger in the mid and late game. In my opinion this concept doesn't really work currently since Mordor's early game is pretty decent if not very strong. My suggestion is too slightly nerf the early game of Mordor in the following ways:

The overseer spell only summons one overseer. The cooldown of the spell get's reduced by about a third and you only need 5 overseers for a Sauron level instead 10.
The idea behind is, that Mordor doesn't get to start off with two overseers and can't secure the map so easily.
Aditionally, the overseer doesn't provide any armor buffs to archers anymore. The damage buff of 50% is already very powerful, they should at least be conterable with good micro/focusfire plays.

My other concern is Shagrat. 30% more armor and passiv aoe damage is a bit too strong for a scout hero.
My idea is to connect the aoe to an active ability, preferably the "greed". This way Shagrat can keep his unique aspect but isn't so oppressive anymore, especially in the eg.

I hope I could provide some useful ideas.

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