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Autor Thema: Mordor Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 81266 mal)

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #45 am: 7. Jan 2016, 08:43 »
I suppose if someone was to post a replay where they were Rohan and an enemy player was Mordor we might be able to see what is the true extent of Mordor's power. *pokes Elite Kryptik*
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Hamanathnath

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #46 am: 7. Jan 2016, 15:55 »
Great to see a response from the Lord of Mordor himself  :)

I don't agree that Free Orc damage should be decreased.  I think people over estimate how much damage the actually do.  The Only reasons free orcs can win fights are 1. Becuase they greatly outnumber their enemies, and/or 2.  They have support.  What that support is is up to the mordor player.  In early game,  these include Nazgul, Gothmog, Archers, units from the Cirith Ungol Barracks, Tainted Land, The Eye of Sauron, and possibly one of the next tier powers.  Without 1 or more of these supporting the orcs, Orcs are very easily counter, unless ,as I said earlier, they greatly outnumber their enemy.  They already have very low health and take a long time to build.  And their damage really isn't that good on its own.  I just don't see any reason to lower their damage.

As for Trolls, while I still think Increasing and Buff them would be a better option, I understand why you don't want to do that. 

If they will stay at the price of 600, then I think the best option would be to Increase their Armour against Arrows and Heroes.  As people have said, it is possible, If you are good enough, to make sure that the trolls don't run though enemy pikes, so that is less of a problem.  However, Trolls have no way of avoiding being focused down by Archers and Heroes.  They shouldn't take as much damage as they do from Normal Arrows, especially from Turrents.  Hero damage is less of a problem, but right now most heroes can completely obliterate trolls.  I don't think the Trolls damage is too low right now, but I'd have to test more to really see if it needs to be changed.

Great discussion we have going here so lets keep it going.   :)

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #47 am: 7. Jan 2016, 16:08 »
About the hero damage, I think that it is in a good spot right now. Depending on which hero you face, Trolls can badly damage them, which is only shared by a few other unique units. A troll can, for example, stomp a level 1 Beregond quite hard. A 600 cost unit smashing a 1000 cost hero to near death is really cost effective, even more so since Beregond has a spear as default weapon, which is naturally effective against trolls.

Against some heroes, Trolls suck. For instance, Boromir is quite good against trolls due to his high armour and health pool, but he costs 1800 to recruit. More often than not, 3 trolls with the same cost of 1800 will wreck Boromir. This is without taking the levels into the equation.

It seems to be a recurring trend with these single heavy hitting units in Edain.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Jan 2016, 16:11 von Odysseus »
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #48 am: 7. Jan 2016, 18:07 »
Calling me out eh?  ;)
I guess I can get a Rohan vs Mordor match for you all to feast your eyes on, I'll post it in the replays section later today.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #49 am: 7. Jan 2016, 18:35 »
About the hero damage, I think that it is in a good spot right now. Depending on which hero you face, Trolls can badly damage them, which is only shared by a few other unique units. A troll can, for example, stomp a level 1 Beregond quite hard. A 600 cost unit smashing a 1000 cost hero to near death is really cost effective, even more so since Beregond has a spear as default weapon, which is naturally effective against trolls.
Fair enough.  But all Beregond needs to do is be near 1 building, and I don't think think the battle will be that close. 

Also, if I remember correctly, all Heroes have specific damage type that they all use. (Which I think is called Hero damage).  So I'm pretty sure Beregond doesn't have the bonus Damage a Spear unit does on Trolls.

 

Odysseus

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #50 am: 7. Jan 2016, 18:41 »
You might be correct. I don't have the specifics. I could check the BIG files, but I don't see why I should haha.

@Elite
I have no right to ask this of you, but could you post as many replays with Rohan against Mordor as possible? It'd be really useful to teach new players how to play with Rohan against Mordor.

That last replay Skeever uploaded with the Battlewagons, I saw Draco manhandling three opponents with his Mordor play. Quite impressive.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #51 am: 7. Jan 2016, 19:18 »
Yeah that last game was ridiculous. Half of the players, including Draco, seemed to just stop playing midway thru the match xD Draco is very good, one of the few players that can actually defeat me that I know of, besides Skeever and Woppader, so naturally his Mordor play was quite impressive.

I had no idea there was a demand for replays involving Rohan, but the problem is that I always play random, because picking factions beforehand gives the opponent an advantage. Unfortunately I almost never get Rohan, because the game hates me, but if I get any good Rohan matches I will post them.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #52 am: 7. Jan 2016, 19:26 »
I was going to agree with Haman that a strong buff for trolls with a little price increasing would be the best option, but since the team is not willing to do so I think the best remaining option is to give them more resistance against arrows (especially structural damage). Other than that, I'm for keeping their trample damage (even though it is more of a inconvenient) and the "troll against hero" thing seems pretty good to me.

However, we are not done. Even though I haven't tested yet the anti Mordor strategy you guys gave me, I'm gonna disagree with anyone who argues that Mordor is not one of the strongest factions currently. So this buff for trolls has to be compensated by a nerf in my opinion. If you guys really don't wanna hit orcs, fine. How about the spellbook then? It feels like Mordor has always either the Eye of Sauron or Tainted land to get the fight to his advantage. Is their cooldown the same as the other 1 pp spell from other factions?


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #53 am: 7. Jan 2016, 19:50 »
Mordor IS one of the strongest factions, as it should be. However, Mordor also suffers from a unique trait of being the easiest to predict AND counter. Enemy spamming orcs? Get some archers/cavalry. Enemies making Trolls? Make archers and pikes. Enemies making heroes? Make a hero killer. If you react to what your opponent does instead of following a single BO, you will find yourself winning many more matches. Everything Mordor has can be countered sharply, unlike other factions. For example, Tower Guard are actually very good against swordsmen, and Rohan Cavalry are often good against pikes. Mordor has no unique units like this, all they got is their free orcs.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #54 am: 7. Jan 2016, 20:29 »
Mordor has no unique units like this, all they got is their free orcs.
Instead Mordor has the biggest variety of units in the game. From what I've read in this thread, the problem might not be that free orcs are too strong on their own, but that they are good enough. Mordor should be making good use of this variety, not just use only one tool and put some heroes on top. If nerfing free orcs encourages Mordor players to use archers, pikes and trolls instead of just rushing for Nazgul and Gothmog, I'm all for it, even if it means other units have to be tweaked as well.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #55 am: 7. Jan 2016, 20:37 »
The problem with nerfing orcs is that it will absolutely ruin Mordor's EG. A decent player can very easily overrun a Mordor player, using the counters that I just mentioned. Giving the orcs that extra little bit is what has fixed Mordor in the latest patch, especially now that the economy system is fixed(the old system ruined Dwarves, Gondor and Isengard EG, hurt Rohan EG badly). All Mordor can afford in the EG is their free orcs, and if those free orcs are not strong enough to at least tie the enemy up for a little while, say 10 mins, Mordor cannot make it to mid-game.

In addition, I see Mordor players using their other orcs all the time, Archers whenever I got a tower guard spam going as Gondor, and Pikes when I'm Rohan. So people are already using all of the orcs.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Jan 2016, 20:41 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #56 am: 7. Jan 2016, 21:29 »
I think spellbook wise, Mordor's Tainted Land and Eye of Sauron have cooldown times similar to other faction's first tier powers.  But Mordor are one of the only faction that can reduce the cooldown times of Spellbook Powers (the only other faction being Lothlorien) through their Tribute Camps (though I was told once they are bugged and the reduction doesn't work.  Might have to test that).  Endless Hordes has a short cooldown, but that isn't really a problem.  Idk if the Spellbook is too good for Mordor.  If anyone disagrees, I would love to here what they think is overpowered.

Most Mordor Players I've seen don't just rush for Nazgul and Gothmog.  Cirith Ungol Units are in almost every game I play against Mordor.  The only unit I barely ever see are trolls.  And there are reasons for that.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #57 am: 8. Jan 2016, 03:09 »
So as promised, I played a game and got a replay. I decided to actually get 2 replays, both have been posted in the Post Your Replays! thread. Now the person I'm against, my friend Sawman, is quite good at the game, only slightly worse than me, and I told him to try his hardest, so both matches were fair fights. The first match I told him to focus entirely on making free orcs, getting an outpost and spamming them like crazy to try and overrun me. The second match was a standard 1v1, the only difference being that instead of random we both knew what we were when we started. I won't go much into details, but I won both matches. The orc spam was defeated both times. Its all about micro and using powers effectively, and countering enemy troops. The first match I also did something people have said is impossible, and outspammed him with my peasants, just to prove that Mordor Orcs really are not that great a force. They served exactly what their function is supposed to be, that is to hold the line and be meatshields. He was not able to gain any ground at all in the first game using mostly free orcs.

Both replays also demonstrate something that I heavily disagree with in the latest patch, the price increase of Théoden to 800. It slows down rohan extremely badly in the early game, in the older versions you could deal even heavier blows against Mordor. I really think his cost should be returned to 600. In addition, the 2nd replay demonstrates the weakness of trolls. Finally, we talked and agreed that we think the Mouth of Sauron is too expensive, and should have a price reduction to 1800.
« Letzte Änderung: 8. Jan 2016, 04:10 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Skeeverboy

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #58 am: 8. Jan 2016, 03:38 »
Please don't use the replaythreat, if you wan't to show balance. You can put your replay in this threat. The replaythreat is just for watching and comment replays.
Zitat
Both replays also demonstrate something that I heavily disagree with in the latest patch, the price increase of Théoden to 800. It slows down rohan extremely badly in the early game, in the older versions you could deal even heavier blows against Mordor. I really think his cost should be returned to 600.
This is the Mordor balancethreat, not the Rohan.

Zitat
Finally, we talked and agreed that we think the Mouth of Sauron is too expensive, and should have a price reduction to 1800.
The Mouth looks weak, but his spells are very strong. For example his spell on Level 6 can kill easy much units, and his other spells can weaken very strong cavallery and archers and heroes.

Sawman

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Re: Mordor Balance Discussion
« Antwort #59 am: 8. Jan 2016, 04:04 »
Hello there

so I was the Mordor player in the relay(if he remembers to add them) and I can say that nerfing the orcs would be a mistake I feel like they are in a good spot right now so I don't think they should be changed

For the first game all I can say is that if you go for all normal orc spam the whole game you should lose to the right player because once he started getting the cav out I could do nothing about it even with fell beasts XD

As for the second game the map was a lot smaller so I was rushed a lot earlier than the first game and he managed to take out one of my barracks so. This also shows trolls are every weak(the only time I get them is when I want the level for sauron) because he just focused me down with heros and that was that. and on the Mouth Of Sauron I think 1800 or even lower is more appropriate because getting his powerful spells entirely relies on what level Sauron is to use his spells.

And one more thing even though I did not make Mollack in these replays because getting him is the biggest waste of money needs either a big price change or a big buff to match his cost because so many other heros are worth 2500 compared to him and he falls really short

thx how you enjoy the replay(whenever he puts it up :p)