Mordor Balance Discussion

[Elite KryPtik]

My bad for forgetting to post the replay, I rectified that. I posted the replay both here and in the replays section, because they were both decent games in their own right.

[Lord of Mordor]

Please don't use the replaythreat, if you wan't to show balance. You can put your replay in this threat. The replaythreat is just for watching and comment replays.

You can post replays in the replay thread and then refer to them during balance discussions, so this is perfectly in order. However, balance should not be discussed in the replay thread itself, because it would get clogged up quickly and people would have to sift through the balance discussions to find the replays.

One thing you need to consider when discussing the Orcs: People have asked for quite a few significant buffs to Mordor in many different areas - stronger trolls, stronger fellbeasts, stronger Mollock, cheaper Mouth of Sauron. (there's also the fact that Morgul Orcs currently have less health than they should due to a bug, which will be fixed) If Mordor is already one of the strongest factions we can't just buff them up without toning them down in other areas.

Regarding trolls, we could add a slow-down to their trample like cavalry has, so they don't trample over too many pikes at once. Other monsters don't have this slow-down because it doesn't make sense for them (Mumakil and Ents wouldn't slow down by walking over infantry), but for trolls it could be useful to have. By the way, since people mostly talk about troll health, would you say their damage is decent at the moment?

Regarding the Mouth of Sauron: Mordor's heroes are actually all slightly more expensive than they would be in other factions because heroes + free troops is such a powerful combination and the enemy can't stop them from levelling either. However, if nobody uses the Mouth of Sauron it's certainly possible to decrease his cost.

[Odysseus]

It makes me think of the vanilla days, where the Mouth of Sauron could solo an unupgrade d fortress haha. Mouth of Sauron is in a good spot if you ask me. Not only does he raise Sauron's level, he also has some serious debuffs all across the board and a lightning strike. A very slight price decrease might not be that bad, but he is a boss in battle, so if you decrease his cost, he would have to be nerfed in some other areas, in my opinion.

Also, this is why I enjoy the mod, the balance is always give and take. This is the best balancing policy one can have, from my point of view. If ''nobody'' gets a certain unit, does not need to imply that the unit is underperforming, rather that it might take more effort to make it work instead.

Gonna watch the repllays now, and share my thoughts afterwards.

[Elite KryPtik]

I do definitely think that troll damage is fine, the problem is they die so fast that you really can't use them well. As for Mouth of Sauron, I know that I use him quite a bit, but ironically come to think of it, I rarely see him in games when I play against Mordor. Its always just Nazgul and Gothmog. I do think a minor decrease of 200 wouldn't be overpowered, but would add just that tiny bit more of an incentive to get him for people.

[Skeeverboy]

Regarding trolls, we could add a slow-down to their trample like cavalry has, so they don't trample over too many pikes at once. Other monsters don't have this slow-down because it doesn't make sense for them (Mumakil and Ents wouldn't slow down by walking over infantry), but for trolls it could be useful to have. By the way, since people mostly talk about troll health, would you say their damage is decent at the moment?

But than their is the problem, if you want that your troll retreat he will pinning in the army of the enemy and die.
The last 8 games, when I was Mordor, I have used trolls and this is what I think about them:
- Price of Trolls is good
- Healt of Trolls is good
- Strength against buildings and Units is good
- Damage from Bows is good
- Damage from Units is good
- Damage from Building Arrows is to much
- Damage from Heroes is to much

Damage from Building Arrows is to much

I think they should become a armourbuff from 25% against Building Arrows, so they can be stronger against Towers.

Damage from Heroes is to much

I think this is a big problem for trolls: They die very fast against heroes. A hero should stand out from his spells, not with his normal strength.
A hero, who isn't a herokiller, shouldn't win against a troll. Now some people would say something like: "Boromir cost 1800 Ressources, so he should be able to kill 3 trolls".
But this is the problem. If one hero can defeat 3 trolls, 5 heroes will defeat over 15.
So i think that Trolls should become much more armour against them.

[Odysseus]

Hmm, I do not like the direction of trolls beating heroes on a regular basis. I already gave an example with Beregond, but the average 1000 point hero will get heavily damaged by a single, un-upgraded troll, if both sides are without support. Then, it becomes a matter of attrition. Since a troll is cheaper than a hero, Mordor will always come out on top, even if the troll dies, since that hero will be so damaged that he will either die by a follow up, or be forced to back off to regenerate health. It becomes even more problematic with more expensive heroes. I mean, Level 1 Mollok loses to a default troll...3000>600. Gandalf takes quite a beating as well. I could go on like that, but I suppose you understand.

However, I would agree with you if trolls would take less damage from heroes if they receive their upgrades. That sounds pretty fair to me. Although, trolls do have the Furious Swipes that can knockback heroes, and knockback is always powerful, no matter which game.

I agree with the turrets against trolls. Trolls are made from stone, surely arrows should have a harder time damaging them.

[Elite KryPtik]

I completely disagree. Heroes should be heavy hitters against any and all targets, excluding scout heroes. They cost a lot of money for a reason. Also, just looking at things from a realistic perspective, heroes would be far above average in terms of their combat skill. They would be one of the best candidates for actually defeating trolls in combat, besides the likes of archers. Damage from all archers right now is too high right now, 2 archers focusing can kill trolls in seconds, regardless of faction. Combine that with how big a troll is and how easy they are to single out, and you got yourself some target practice.

[The_Necromancer0]

I agree with Elite Kryptik, heroes both in a logical balance wise manner should be the most apt to destroy trolls since they have sharpened their skills and blade/bow over the many decades of existence. I mean look at the Siege of Minas tirith, when the trolls cross the gate what kills them: 1) Gandalf (Hero) 2) Arrows (archers), perfect logical example. Gameplay wise it is logical they also be defeated by pikes but once they are armored I also think it would logical that they gain a sever boost in arrow resistance.

[-DJANGO-]

Concerning the Replays:

1. Game: At the first big battle infront of the Modor Base u did loose at lot of Cavalry, given that u went into the fight with at least 14 Batts of Heavy Riders. Mordor Player did not use any Cry of the Nazgul. Nor did he use Saurons fire abilities or his waft of mist which gives Units an enorm armor Bonus. At the end, we can see what an enormous damage Sauron can do with his fire against Cavalry! If both players have full CP (in case of Rohan the best possible CP), u cant expect Mordor to win with not reaching its own full potential! (Or as u think that Replay should teach us so, with Only Standard Orcs). Given this situation, the Mordor player was supposed to build all cirith ungol units, to reach his given full potential, since he could not even get map control anymore.  Furthermore he had no Leadership in form of Gothmogs, whilst you had everything a Rohan player can max out of his potential.

2. Game: In the EG Mordor player had money for towers, but he did not build them (what can I say...)! Though your traitors died quickly against standard orcs. Mordor couldn't spam Orcs, due to CP Limit. U stole his troll money. When Rohan builds his Cavalry Stable, Mordor builds his 1. Eco building in his base ( ). When Mordor attacks the settle point, Rohan player has more (YES MORE) CP! Though u are fighting next to the settlepoint, which means healing for you, and have all heros, u loose quite a lot. Later then, concerning Cav VS. Orcs see critic above...
=> in other words: the 2. Game is garbage & very poor play of Mordor.

P.S.: in the first game u didn't outspam him with peasants. It was traitors + Gamling (which will be hopefully fixed in next patch). Though i would like to see a peasant spam (lvl. 1 and no heros!) against Orcs 

[Hamanathnath]

I was lucky enough to see these games live.   Pretty exciting at times.

It always easy to pick out someone's mistakes when you're watching a game.  There were very little things I would consider big mistakes from the Mordor player.  The only one I found to be a pretty bad mistake was in game 2.  It took too long for the Mordor player to increase his CP.  Other then that, I think the Mordor player did well in both games.

I personally don't agree that a Hero's price should determine how many trolls he can kill before dying.  By that logic, Heroes that cost 3000 should be able to defeat 5 trolls by themselves.  And while I think might be able to with good Ability use, Galadriel won't even have a chance, no matter what her level is.  The problem I find with Trolls vs Heroes is that Pretty much every single Hero has an Ability that can be used against trolls, While the trolls don't have anything that is useful against heroes.  Even the lower costing Heroes get something quickly that works well on Trolls, like Lurtz Carnage, Haldir's Golden Arrow, Faramir's Wounding Arrow, Hama's Untamed Determination.  Even Scout Heroes such as Nori, Pippin, Merry and Bill Ferny can become decent at Killing Trolls like 3 mins into the game (and Right Away in Bill Ferny's Case).  And I know someone is going to say "Well those heroes (besides Nori) have upgrades that make them better, and that makes them better vs Trolls".  To that, I say that Trolls come from a building that is risky to buy early game because of its high price, while Heroes come from the free citadel.  I doubt that everyone will agree with that logic, but you can't just ignore the Price of the Troll Cage.

Mouth of Sauron could use a very small price decrease, but nothing lower then 1800.  He is too strong late game to be lower than that.

I really hope the replays were enough to prove that Free Orcs by themselves are not too strong.  Without support, Orcs can be easily countered.  I am aware that if all the buffs I called for come true, then Mordor will be stronger.  That's why I suggested that Trolls cost a bit more.  But there are other slight nerfs that could be made to Weaken Mordor.  Why not increase the reload times of Spellbook Power by 10% each?  I think that is fair because Mordor has the Tribute Camps.  If Mollock becomes a lot stronger, then increasing his price wouldn't be that bad either.  Nerfing Orc would hurt Mordor's early game too much.

[Odysseus]

I refrained myself from replying yesterday, because I wanted to wait and see what someone else had to say. Now that Django replied, and I completely agree with him, I can as well.

Both games were basically a repetition. The Mordor player made quite a couple of mistakes, but I won't really get into that. The employed strat is a strategy that relies on the traitors to do damage. Since you got 2 traitors each time, instead of the supposed 1, we are discussing a strategy based on a bug. Basically, the point is moot. Also, this strategy is instantly shutdown by turrets. Mordor can easily afford turrets, but I have no idea why Sawman did not get any in both games, as Django said. Mordor floated in both games early on.

Still, in that first head-on engagement in the first match, near the Cirith Ungol Barracks, you nearly lost gamling, lost Merry and all your peasants to default orcs and Gorbag. Your peasants even had leadership from Corrupted Theoden. Translated into resources on the field, that's this: (Mordor) 200 versus (Rohan) 1000+800+ 150 + all the peasants. If he had gone for a Nazgul, instead of using the Gondor strategy of ''spamming'' resource structures in the base as quickly as possible (instead of those two Tribute Camps of 800) Gamling would have died, and be unabled to be revived and it would have been GG.

I stopped watching there because the game was already lost for Mordor. Same thing with the second game.

The thing about Mordor orcs is that can they literally gangbang a unit with their numbers, and since they have decent attack speed, the damage pours in. It is as DJANGO says, if Mordor does reach its full potential Rohan will probably lose. However, I don't think it's because Rohan lacks late-game options, but rather that it is already decided early on, in terms of economics and performance. If a peasant squad kills an orc squad only to be killed by a second one, it is still a win for Mordor, since Mordor didn't pay anything for those orcs apart from time. Then slowly, the snowball effect that is Mordor kicks in. In a war of attrition, Mordor always wins. Even avoiding engagements with Mordor is a war of attrition since you are giving your opponent time.

Orcs are free. FREE! Their only benefit should be that they clog the land, kill some default creeps, buy time and cause lag to annoy your opponent, and nothing else. There is currently little to no point in getting these Overseers since default orcs already do well enough on their own.

You are an experienced player Kryptik, surely you know that comparing expenses from both sides is pivotal. I don't know Sawman, and I wont' judge him, but there is a distinction between both your levels of play. It can simply be observed. You know this too .

Still, I wanted to thank you for the replays. You went out of your way to do that for us and you made my conviction about Mordor being too awesome even stronger. Totally cool haha.

[Hamanathnath]

Just to be clear, Theoden's traitor ability working on 2 peasants is not a bug.  It was originally supposed to work on only one, but it wouldn't work right, so instead they added a timer on the traitors.  I have a lot more to say, but not the time to do it, so expect a post later.

[Hamanathnath]

Sorry for the 2 posts in a row, just this one will be longer and I didn't want to make a huge edit to my last one.

First Odysseus, before you comment on what happens in a replay, I would recommend actually watching the entire replay.  From what I could tell by what you said, you stopped watching after you saw a actually fight between Orcs and Peasants.  And after that, you stopped because Mordor somehow "Already Lost", despite the game going on for another 40 mins or so.  Again, watching the entire replay before commenting would be a great idea.

Second, it is much easier to see a mistake when you are watching the game and not actually playing it.  Making mistakes is part of being human.  Plus, idk how Turrents would help your argument on Orcs being too strong.  Yes, Sawman should have got Turrents, but what does it prove if Turrents kill the enemy instead of the Orcs?

Thirdly, You say that spamming orcs makes the game "already decided early on."  If this is true, then shouldn't Mordor win every game they play because of Orc spam (assuming the players are equally skilled)?  Orcs have obvious counters.  And Kry got map control by just using Peasants, Theoden, and Gamling (with Theodred and Cavalry coming at the end).  And Peasants aren't much better then orcs, plus you need to pay for them. 

I just don't see how Orcs are considered too strong.  Later in the match a good mob of them took a long time just to break a Theodred Tower.  I don't see why their damage needs a nerf.

No offense of course Odyssues, just defending my point.

[Elite KryPtik]

Haman pretty much nailed the points. Please watch the entire replays before saying a game is won or lost. Using Traitors on multiple peasants was originally a bug, when the traitors were permanent conversion, but a timer was added as the "fix" for the bug, so therefore it is now a legitimate method. You can't honestly tell me that you've never made a mistake playing, and since Sawman's play was overall quite good, with only minor mistakes here and there that had no relevance to the point, they shouldn't count. In regards to the turrets, if he had made those, that's 150 wasted on something that won't be useful again for a ling time, and in addition I would simply have immediately switched targets to kill the turrets, so that's a moot point.

In terms of comparing costs, it does not matter if Mordor wins economically if they don't HAVE a freaking economy. By taking as much map control as I did with just peasants and traitors(just peasants with Théoden leadership is impossible, and would be a total waste of time to try and do) I proved that just spamming Mordor orcs early game is not enough, and that they DO need help to make any progress. That's the exact point you have been arguing, is that orcs should only serve as a meatshield, and that currently with nothing but orcs you can win a match, which has been proven false. May I refer to a previous replay, posted by Django, the title of which is "OnlyOrcsStillEnough"? In that game, the Rohan players skill was so bad that It bears mentioning. He still had empty build plots inside his base 20 mins into the freaking game, which Sawman did not have.

I will agree that the 2nd game is not as close of a match for 3 very good reasons.
1: Sawman absolutely hates playing as Mordor, and was doing this as a favor for me. Playing twice in a row as a faction you hate can wear on your desire to play your best.
2: Sawman additionally hates playing on Fords of Isen 2, because he is sick and tired of it from all the games everybody always plays on it.
Finally 3: Due to Fords of Isen being so much smaller than Forlindon, it favors the Rohan player much more. You have to cross the entire map on Forlindon to engage the enemy, while on Fords of Isen I could easily harass and engage at multiple points.

I said when I first posted that Sawman was not quite as good as me, and I also very clearly said my play at the beginning was totally horrible in the first match(nearly losing Gamling/Merry). That almost never happens to me, for some reason the I just could not see Gorbag in the middle of the orcs and trees, which is why I withdrew. If I had been able to see Gorbag I would have killed him in seconds with Gamlings extremely high damage due to banishment, and won that fight, gaining map control even faster. To sum it up: Gorbag will never EVER kill Gamling if the player knows how to micro, that was a minor mistake on my part, and the only one that I made. Additionally, if he had rushed a nazgul, I would have simply focused the Nazgul down with Gamlings insanely high damage. If you had watched just a brief while longer into the match instead of turning it off after 5 mins, you would have seen that Sawman does indeed get 2 Nazgul, and that my heroes with Banishment totally wreck them.

Orc spam is currently Mordors only method of staying alive in the early game. If orc damage was nerfed, think about what I would have been able to accomplish. Additionally, if a player skips the peasant spam entirely and rushes straight for cavalry, what then is a Mordor player to do? Orc pikes are freaking terrible, and I'm not joking when I say they lose to Rohirrim of the Eastfold. The free orcs are absolutely necessary to supplement the orc pikes in damage and numbers and to soak up cavalry charges in this situation.

Finally, I am willing to get replays of all other factions to prove that orc spam is not unbeatable as any faction. If you will not accept Sawman as a player, then I'm sure Haman can fill his boots. I personally think Sawman is a perfect representation of a slightly above average player. Not everybody is as good as Skeever, Woppader, Draco and myself. If I came off as rude at any point in this reply, forgive me. It just seems to me like you are all ganging up on things that are not relevant to the point, which frustrates me.

[-DJANGO-]

Finally, I am willing to get replays of all other factions to prove that orc spam is not unbeatable as any faction.

No Thank You!   

doesn't come "myself" at first?