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Isengard Balance Discussion

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Halbarad:
So, first of all, your suggestions are going into the same direction as mine. We both want less traitor cav and we both think that Isengart can get its Uruk Hai pretty cheap. So here is what I think about your suggestions:


--- Zitat ---1)   summoned cav battalions from 15 to 10 men each

--- Ende Zitat ---
I also suggested that a few times, so it also sounds good to me (Quick reminder: My alternate suggestion was to summon one battalion on horses and one as swordsmen)

--- Zitat ---2)   summoned wildmen’s bonus damage vs building from 50% to 30% (+maybe changed damage type)
--- Ende Zitat ---
Sounds reasonable to me.

--- Zitat ---3)   Uruk’s cost from 300, 400, 400 to 400, 500, 500
4)   More hp and damage for uruks (if they now have 15% more than Gondorsoldiers I could imagine giving them 30% more than Gondorsoldiers)
--- Ende Zitat ---
I do think that my suggestion (mineshafts = faster recruitment speed for Uruk Hai instead of lower costs) adresses the problem much better. Your suggestion would raise Uruk Hai costs but also raise the total discount per battalion given by mineshafts while also making the Uruk Hai stronger. I think their strength right now is pretty fine and to just take away the cost reduction would nerf them really well.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
Making the wildmen better against units is exactly what caused the problems in the past where you just throw all summons against the enemy army and annihilate it. If anything, their damage to units should go down even further to differentiate the different summons.

We can nerf Isengard's economy while still keeping the theme intact - one of the problems with it is that it affects the entire game, not just the heavy Uruks. It makes Isengard rather forgiving to play, because losing heroes (which is already difficult with Lurtz and Ugluk running around, let's be honest) isn't as terrible and economy upgrades aren't necessary until late in the game (or at all with the central spell). It also reduces the importance of a solid earlygame, which is one of my biggest gripes with Isengard currently - it is too easy to catch up after a terrible early game.

Seleukos I.:

--- Zitat ---Making the wildmen better against units is exactly what caused the problems in the past where you just throw all summons against the enemy army and annihilate it. If anything, their damage to units should go down even further to differentiate the different summons.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Yes, that makes sense, I guess. My idea to change the damage type was only meant in case they would be to weak otherwise, but I agree with what you said.
Nontheless I still think that destroying important outposts is too easy with the wildmen. In the games I played/saw it was succesfull most of the time, and even if you should fail, it's not that much of an investment wasted (only the palantir and the wildmen summon).

 I also agree with what you said concerning the eco, especially the early game thing^^


I don't really like the idea of removing the uruk discount in general, as Halbarad suggested.
Isengard is supposed to have a rather weak early game(at least in terms of head on fighting, as their eg units are more harassing units), so Isengard needs to catch up in actual fighting units once they got their Uruk-upgrade. Right now that's to easy for Isengard, as Elendil said, but without any Uruk discount (and less mapcontrol, as Isen looses mapcontrol at th end of the eg most of the time) it might be too hard.

And even with the nerf to the eco spells, I still like the idea of pushing Uruks more towards elite units (cost wise). In general I'd like to see other unit smade more expensive (and better) as well, such as Lorien or dwarven standart units. But that's another topic :D

Halbarad:
I think Isengart would still rule the lategame because of the -60% discount for Upgrade-costs, the extra upgrade (Uruk Captain). It would still represent Isengart Industry very well.
Isengart has a decent Earlygame when it doesn't have to face enemy cav because of wild men harassment. Now we had a few suggestions to make wild men pikes available (through a cheaper Wulfgar e. g.), so that could be fixed. Along with this, we would get a decent EG against every other faction. A midgame that would be a bit more difficult to play because of Machinery of War Upgrade and no price reduction until then. But it would make way for a very strong Lategame with Isengarts really strong economy and strong discount on upgrades.

Agree with Elendil. Damage of Wild Men from the spell could still be reduced. If necessary the money-steal could be raised.

AmosVogel:
Hello, Edain fellows!

What I see is that everyone complains how strong uruks are, but rising their prices will make them even much more expensive than Rivendell soldiers, because of the battalion size:

Rivendell swordsmen 5 units for $500.00
Uruk swordsmen 15 units for $800.00 or $1,000.00, maybe?

What can be done is simple, using the mighty economy for mighty upgrades! How? we all know isengards early game is diffficult, but the more we wait, the easier to buy the machinery of war wich is only $1,000.00

Why dont rise the price of upgrades and tech?

Machinery of war 1: $1,000.00 to $2,000.00
Machinery of war 2: $1,500.00 to $3,000.00

Forged blades: $1,500.00
Heavy armor: $1,500.00

SteelWorks: Everything to $2,500.00 each

And the battalions each upgrade to $900.00, so the furnace effect truly drives the tech to disscount.

All of this is based in on scene and one scene only:

Saruman: "I want them armed and ready to march within two weeks!"

Orc: "But my Lord, there are too many! They cannot all be armed in time, we don't have the means."

Saruman: "Build a dam, block the stream, work the furnaces night and day."

Orc: "We don't have enough fuel to feed the fires."

Yes, Isengards economy is the very best, because its also the most expansionist; the only true industry of Middle Earth yes, but at the same time is the smallest faction of all, thus their upgrades must be the most expensive,  because they deplete forests very fast, driving the player for an agressive expantion:

Saruman: "The Forest of Fangorn lies on our doorstep. Burn it."

Isengards economy will still be the migthiest, but also will be more taxing.

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