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Dwarven Balance Discussion

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-DJANGO-:
I would not change much regarding the battle wagons. I find them very easily to manage due to their handling. I have too, the impression that they now slow down more than in the previous version (Now they get stuck in Mordor Orcs).
I appreciate a CP increase! If you compare the function of Battlewagons i.e. to Lorien, the wagons fullfill Trampling + Healing/steady Leadership. Lorien needs for that Beornings and Singers (though both units have also other pros which the Wagons dont have). I simply will say with that: Wagons are extremly diverse and are worth all their costs.
Maybe the step to distance them from "onehit" -  trample unit to a more supportive role is a good idea. Still they have their barrel. Though they should deal decent damage trampling, they still are Battlewagons.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades:
It already was more supportive than any other cavalry with its upgrades (while needing to trample two or three times to kill swordsmen btw). Battlewagons have an incredible manoeuvrability and their awesome oil barrel, which made it totally fine to me that they died as soon as they touched three pikes - because they never touch them if microed properly. Unlike with horses, that is actually quite easy to accomplish. They can back off instantly by driving backwards. Now pikes don't instakill them anymore, you can literally drive through an entire batallion of pikes and the battlewagon will survive.
I wouldn't change the trampling of battlewagons, it is what makes them unique. Reduce their armor against pikes again so they need to be used more carefully and increase their cp.

Elite KryPtik:
Agree that Battlewagons have been made really strong in general, I think that an increase to cp and trample deceleration would be fine. I have no issues with their current armor values.

Everybody keeps on mentioning the speed of the elves, but if we are talking about the specific matchup vs dwarves you seem to be forgetting something extremely important about the dwarves: the tunnel system.

How can you possibly argue that you can outflank and harass the dwarves when they can teleport troops instantly to whatever you are trying to harass? 1v1 Lorien Swordsmen lose to Iron Hills Guardians, which means that if you split your troops up to harass external settlements you are sentencing them to death against a skilled dwarf player. I think Haman nailed every other point on the head except this one.

This is one of the prime issues in this matchup, besides the fact that Iron Hills can just spam you with guardians with tower shields and win. The protection that dwarves have through the tunnel system is currently unmatched, and makes harassment almost impossible unless you use large groups of troops, in which time the dwarves can easily move forward and harass your own farms, which don't have the ability to have troops teleported to them.

EDIT: I just thought I would draw some correlations for those of you who don't think that the battalewagon trample is too strong. So lets compare, If we look at other factions basic cavalry we have Gondor Knights at 700, 120 command point cost, who get stuck after trampling half a battalion of orcs, and the multitude of different cavalry Rohan has, who cost 400(I think, I always get them fully discounted at 280) and 90 command points, and have the same trampling power as Gondor Knights.

Compare this to the battlewagon, with a default cost of 600 and 20 command points. The resource cost is ok, command points are pretty low. Then we look at the trample, a battlewagon can easily kill a battalion of orcs without slowing down, and can throw powerful explosive casks which by themselves can wipe out clumped infantry. On top of this the battlewagon can be provided with leadership and healing capacities, all for 25 command points. Now, if anybody wants to argue that is not over-performing for 25 command points, you are either biased or a fool, no offence of course ;)

So, to wrap it up, I just think that Battlewagons need a command point cost increase to at least 60, preferably 90, and an increase to trample deceleration, to be just above normal cavalry in their trample strength, say able to trample 1 full battalion of orcs or troop equivalent before slowing down. I think the armor buff was sorely needed, but giving them a straight armor buff without nerfing some other aspects made them a little bit overpowered. Food for thought :)

Mogat:
1) I think a drastical increase of the damage the battlewagon takes from pikes and a cp increase is a good idea. There is in my opinion no need to slow down their trampling

2) I did not forget about the tunnel system of the Dwarves. It is just so, that harassing dwarves is still really good possible, even if taking the tunnels into consideration. Iron hills can never force an engagement if you got a batallion of pikes in position. Moreover you don't harass one farm. You harass 3 farms. Simultaniously. And if some dwarves come out of the network you get some nice hits with your units clumped beind the building onto it and run away as soon as the dwarves start hitting (in some of my tournament games you can see executed lorien harass vs. dwarves btw.)

My proposition to test this matchup is still active, I would be fine with it if somebody prooves me wrong  ;)

Odysseus:
I concur with Elite. The main weakness of the Dwarves SHOULD be their lack of mobility, except Ered Luin. However, the Tunnel system almost completely negates that. I have always thought from the very beginning when the Dwarves were introduced in BFME II that it was ridiculously overpowered, creating these weird games where cavalry have to harass and go back and forth each time to actually take down a single resource building and avoid pikes simultaneously, while requiring godly micro. Since nobody seemed to really care about it, or that it was generally accepted, I said whatever to myself.

Maybe if there was some kind of upgrade in the Stonemaison at level 2, like Military Tunnels or something that enables travelling through the tunnels for the Dwarves, maybe people would actually buy the damn Stonemaison building in the base and it would give the Dwarves proper mobility issues, instead of now, you have to get lucky to take down a settlement.

Yes Draco, I am criticising the Dwarves. That is the point of the discussion. I'm not saying Battlewagons are overpowered, I'm just saying that I do not like how they perform in their role at the moment. It's not impossible to deal with them, but I think the wagon is far more trouble than its actual worth to take down. The thing is almost as expensive as its counter, costs 25 CP, and barely gets stuck on pikes, unlike cavalry.

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