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Autor Thema: Dwarven Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 65747 mal)

Adrigabbro

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #15 am: 12. Nov 2015, 13:46 »
In my opinion battlewagons could use some buff. They die extremely fast to pikemen (nothing to say about it; after all it's normal) AND swordsmen. I don't really understand why swordsmen deal so much damage to them.
I don't really know how strong dwarves are at the moment ; probably strong enough. If you think it would make dwarves overpowered, how about just improving Iron Hills battlewagons ? It would compensate a bit their lack of heroes compared to Erebor and Ered Luin.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #16 am: 12. Nov 2015, 18:54 »
Well Battlewagons are weak, but you have to remember their also quite cheap, provided you get enough Lumber Camps. You can get them for only 280 a piece, and a group of 10 can do work, I assure you.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

CragLord

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #17 am: 12. Nov 2015, 19:26 »
I agree with you Elite, but it is strange if we take a look on battlewagon as the heavy unit (machine) with trampling ability (which should be primal usage of this unit).
I don't have anything against pike damage on this unit. It is normal and in term of balance that pikes instantly destroy it. But swordsmen damage, that is "lame". xD
I won't have anything against increase of cost if they are buffed a bit in armor for example (against swordsmen etc). For now their usage is mainly support from background of battlefield. And in objective situation on battlefield, you can't use them against good player in trample purpose because of pikes (pikes always defend range units, they are overlapped).
And I never build group of 10, it is waste of money and units in general if we take into consideration their current usage. Maybe I am wrong about this, but that is my opinion.
I hope team will buffed them (that swordsmen armor for example) with those new proposals we are suggesting about WarChariots.
In my opinion you really need crazy micro in game if you want to use them like trample unit against good player. And using battlewagon mainly as support unit because of this situation is a bit strange. It is heavy machine which should be able to destroy formations of enemy battalions. Or this is only my opinion? xD

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Aule the creator

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #18 am: 12. Nov 2015, 23:37 »
the ram riders are perfect.

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #19 am: 13. Nov 2015, 00:20 »
I wouldn't mind buffing battlewagons a bit and making them more expensive. I agree they're better as heavier units that don't need to be spammed in large quantities to be effective.
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Odysseus

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #20 am: 13. Nov 2015, 06:38 »
I thought it would be quite nice to maintain their support centered role, instead of your typical cavalry charge-linebreaker unit. The cavalry of the other factions mostly do the same thing, however the BattleWagon is quite unique thanks to that role. Also, it has fantastic trample, so if you catch a group of archers unaware, they are probably done for.

I think they are fine if you use them as support, in that sense, they could even be cheaper, but then they become quite spammable. Truly, Dwarves don't break the line, other factions try to break theirs :P.
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CragLord

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #21 am: 13. Nov 2015, 14:19 »
I support this. There is problem with swordsmen for sure, they get maybe to much damage from these kind of units (melee except pikes). I don't have experience in balance problems, so I don't know what to suggest in this situation (armor against melee units except pikes if this is possible?).
First, you can always play them as support unit, no matter what changes they get in future. Simply upgrade them with supportive upgrades and keep them at side to support units. It is simple and no matter what change they get. Battle wagon was and will be always unique because of its multiple role system, but no one here is discussing about removing supportive upgrades for battle wagon, we are discussing about buffing him a bit and buff its cost which is reasonable. I simply can't imagine heavy machine which is used only for staying in place and heal or buff armor and damage of units. Heavy War Chariots in history (which is some equivalent of battle wagon in game) have always used for mainly one purpose, destroying enemy formation and slaughter of enemies with wheel spikes, not to be supportive unit in general case.
Simply it is out of place to make heavy machine as current battle wagon to be just support unit.
And you can't even use them properly against archers if you are playing against some experience player, because they are always protected with pikes. So mainly you should be able to use them for swordsmen trample and in current game, battle wagons are also weak. Swordsmen deal good amount of damage to them.
Also concerning your suggestion to make them cheaper, I really don't understand why you suggested that. In my opinion it will ruin concept of battle wagon for sure.
Again I must underline it is heavy machine used for offensive purposes, with possibility of supportive usage, not is versa way!
That is maybe your experience from other dwarven games, in this game, dwarves are offensive as hell if you know how to play them. There will be always some defensive concept about dwarves (because of their way of living, place where they live etc), but simply if you call your suggestion of making battle wagons cheaper and more as spamming support unit on this defensive concept, I would say it is totally out of place in my opinion, and it will ruin nature of battle wagon for sure.

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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #22 am: 13. Nov 2015, 19:27 »
Careful Crag, just because nobody is discussing it now doesn't mean nobody will. This is the balance discussion thread, and that may come up in the future.

Anyways I personally do not agree with buffing the battlewagon as it is right now, only if the war chariots idea from the other thread is implemented. I believe that if the battlewagons are buffed that people will start using them as a primary unit, which makes no sense for Dwarves, they are not a cavalry faction. I have no problems with their current strength, and I only ever use 1 or 2 of them to give a mobile heal and leadership anyways. The Infantry are, and should be, superior.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

CragLord

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #23 am: 13. Nov 2015, 19:57 »
I know Elite, sometimes my choleric side give me few problems in communication.
In general that was caused with current situation. I really don't like current usage wagonas as primary support unit. I tried to explain best I could above. That's all, and I hope you understand me. If I sound in bad way, believe me it is not my intention.
I also would like to discuss about this matter in more serious way if WarChariot suggestion get implemented. Again I don't have so much experience in solving balance problems, but I would like to see them buffed a bit so I could use them in proper way when we speak about breaking of swordsmen lines or similar melee units except pikes.  And as player I always try to play with infrantry at first place, but wagons and other siege weapon is some kind of backup. Simply if they get buffed, I would still use couple of them for support usage, but difference will be in usage of few of them in offensive purposes, but I presonally won't spam them as "crazy". :) For others I don't know, probably you are right in some way. And as I said, it is so odd, if we just use this siege heavy macine for supporting and not in offence (of course we could, but personally I need much better micro for that). I would like if that is gona change somehow.

Regards
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Nov 2015, 21:56 von CragLord »

Odysseus

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #24 am: 13. Nov 2015, 21:54 »
Basically, what Kryptik said is what I meant.

It's arguably the safest and most effective way to use them at the moment. I don't mind if it is to be changed in the future, however, I was just stating that I actually enjoy it as a mobile support platform instead of your typical trample unit, retreat and repeat. Support is always stronger than straight up offense, especially with the new 20% health reduced patch, but also when in the correct hands, I say. Making it a bit sturdier to trample swordsmen should be okay, but as long as it isn't overdone. That is all.

Technically, they could add war chariots for dwarves, but I feel it would be contradictory to the team's vision and design for the dwarves. The less cavalry, the better. In fact, it might just be so that the Battlewagon was also kept as an icon, like Gandalf's abilities to stay untouched, but I could be wrong here.

I don't really see why they should be added and what they have to offer for the Dwarves playstyle and design. Even if they were to be added, it should be in some exclusive form like a Spellbook power or a hero summon, or perhaps some kind of additional upgrade to the Battlewagon that would transform it into a war chariot, but I see most places to be filled already and it would steer away from the main concept of the Dwarves.

Oh and +1 to KryPtik.

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #25 am: 14. Nov 2015, 08:23 »
Have you not seen the war chariot thread Odysseus? Its under Dwarven Suggestions, go check it out and post your thoughts there.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Draco100000

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #26 am: 22. Nov 2015, 11:16 »
I´m actually agree with CragLord, battlewagons should be stronger, keeping in mind that they are instakilled against pikes. The main argument is that if they get buffed they will be spammed, but just using wisely pikemen and ranged units, you can deal with lot of them. The reaction of the player would be make more pikes and caval to counter the enemie ( something like when you have to deal with rohan) The main problem isnt at all their strenght, the problem is that when they trample infantry they actually get dmg as the cavalry get dmg when trampling pikemen. So the bad thing is only this, when stuck the chariot will be also kicked by the infantry, so used well should be able to deal with infantry, but actually because of getting dmg just because of trampling it is completely useless. Heros kill chariots easily, specialy ranged ones.  So eliminating that dmg while trampling infantry should be enough, you will still making pikes, and thats all. In the other hand if you think that is fair that other faction can get the dwarves down only using swordsmen and archers..... Actually lothlorien have lot of advantage upon dwarves cause of their freaking ranged dmg. And if you try to kill some swordsmen with the chariot it just get killed in seconds. So actually this wont change their role or their use. They will still being instakilled by pikemen, but wont be completely useless. Is completely clear that is more worth to make mines instead lumbermills to get reduction cost on upgrades, so spam them is the most useless thing that you can do, specially with dwarves. When i Read the comment of Kryptik where he talk about get 10 of them...... camon thats completely useless, even getting that small buff. We are talking about make a completely useless unit in to a versatil one. And actually there are beornings that can destroy your ass in seconds, so why not good chariots edain team?

CragLord

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #27 am: 23. Nov 2015, 20:28 »
Yes Draco, I tried to explain exactly that in more comments.
Experienced players know how to counter Battlewagons spam (not only battlewagons, but any spam of any units), but I really don't know why there should be spam anyway if we look on this in objective way.
And yes, I proposed in all comments above increase of battlewagon armor against swordsmen or to be precise against melee basic units, because current situation (as you have confirmed in some way) is really strange, battle wagons shouldn't take any serious damage from trampling melee basic units except pikes.

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CragLord

Odysseus

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #28 am: 6. Dez 2015, 01:52 »
Good day,

Before I start a seperate thread about this, I wanted to gather some opinions here first. I wanted to talk about the Dragon Slayer of the Iron Hills and its current performance and implementation.

After having done a few quick direct tests in WB and in skirmish, I noticed a few things:

1. The single target damage of the Dragon Slayer's sword is gargantuan. I think it can tear down an average resource structure without upgrades in 4-5 hits. This is something no other hero (that I am aware of) can do, not even the dedicated anti-building ones. Do you think the performance of the Dragon Slayer is currently justified? Is he too strong? Too weak? Would love to hear a bit about this.

2. So far, most Dragons in the past BFME renditions have been flying units, apart from that old Isengard dragon PP spell if I recall correctly. How exactly will a full melee Dragon Slayer actually slay a flying dragon in the future? Is there any information about this? This one is a little off-topic perhaps, but I wanted to put it out there anyway.

3. You can build multiple Dragon Slayers which if all equipped with a sword, can take down a camp in a short amount of time. On top of that, he isn't expensive, only 600. The Hunters are more expensive than a conceptually designed hero (unit). Although they are of course weaker than true heroes, but their single sword damage is maybe just as high as the Witch King's Level 10 ability, perhaps even more with Forged Blades. So, a ''hero'' you can get multiple times sounds rather strange. Any thoughts?

4. What if we turned the Dragon Slayer into a real, full-fledged hero, specifically designed to deal with monsters, not just through sheer damage, but also via abilities? He would be similar to a CAH created hero. Would there be any animo for this?

I look forward to hearing your opinions!

Kind regards.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Dwarven Balance Discussion
« Antwort #29 am: 6. Dez 2015, 10:02 »
Actually I haven't been able to play much with Ered Mithrin for I mostly choose Erebor but I am gonna try. If what you say is true, I could use such unit. :D


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