Dwarven Balance Discussion

[Dain@]

Hello ! Sorry for my English !. I wanted to share with you a few observations and suggestions. The first is the imbalance in fractions! I have repeatedly said that the Ered Luin the strongest fraction of all troh gnomes! And it's not because the Ered Luin so strong, but because of the Iron Hills and Erebor no worthy leader!. With the advent of the Iron Hills in Narin developers have strengthened the position of the Iron Hills in terms of the characters and their applications! However, the only weak point of the Iron Hills in my opinion it Dain! since it does not reflect its character as a warrior and leader. A Erebor yield on two fronts: the first weak Dain, (sometimes it seems to me that is stronger than either Thorin together Dain) and Erebor only 4 hero. What is most interesting Dain internal competition loses his son Thorin! (I do think he is stronger and cheaper, as the Witch-king of Angmar weaker Zafragor). Confirmation of my words can probably be something that most players play for Ered Luin and the Iron Hills, and for Erebor not really. I propose to add a fifth character Erebor Balin and Thorin to replace him fourth on the ability of the defense. (As long as he has not yet decided what it should be), and as Dain then maybe you will be interested (). What do you think?

And yes, I totally agree with Julio229. Dain is the only character playing for which I totally do not want to get the ring! On the contrary ring leads him to fully unfit for action and makes keeping Dain inside the base as a sacred calf!

I sincerely hope that these facts will help to start a new discussion on the further development of the Dwarves faction. Thank you for attention.

[Dain@]

And I almost forgot if anyone is interested https://modding-union.com/index.php/topic,34206.0.html

[WarOfTheRingVeteran]

I think the fire arrows upgrade should be somewhat cheaper for Erebor. IH and EL have archers that are normally recruited in the camp/castle, but Erebor gets access to archers only via its outpost, yet they pay the same price for them.

Also forged blades could be more expensive for Erebor since ranged units benefit from it as well as melee units. Or cheaper for the other two. Or both.

[calixoxx]

Some thoughts on the Dwarves: it seems each of the three sub-factions have specific OP issues with them which makes each subfaction extremely OP when exploited.

For example:

Ered Luin's Thorin is very OP and he either needs an armor reduction or a health reduction. Also I think it is a little silly that the speed buff allows the Dwarves to move as fast as Elves ^^

Erebor: Is a little odd because it's units are so weak but the axe thrower power is so crazy strong vs EVERYTHING that when it gets going its very OP. I don't know if these need a debuff vs structures or a debuff vs other units. Also, Thorin 3rd is way too strong a hero.

Iron Hills: Yes, they are slow but the armor on these and resistance to knockback is so strong that I've seen a spam of basic unupgraded infantry wreck an entire base. Upgraded, you just cant kill these units. I think they need a minor armor debuff.

A few other things:

Are battle wagons too expensive or is it just me? The armor vs pikes is also a little too weak imo

I would like to see the elite veterans given a slight speed buff. I feel as if, yes they are strong, but especially if you're ered luin, you can do what you need to do without them before they even are able to get there ^^

[Elite KryPtik]

Ditto, he's called Thorin Brokenshield for a reason. Although, his real strength comes from other heroes giving him leaderships, by himself he is managable. I agree their speed is a bit insane, should probably be as fast as Men, not Elves.

Overall Erebor actually sucks pretty bad right now, the only redeeming quality is the Axe Throwers, who can dominate early game, and obviously Thorin the 3rd who is insanely strong. Once ite gets to late game they fail against most other factions though. so overall they need buffs more than anything.

This really comes from all the armor leaderships, plus tower shields. Ditto nontheless, they are too tanky.

I think battlewagons are in a good spot, bordering on being too strong actually. They have practically no trample deceleration at all, and the barrels deal good damage too.

Well, since this only comes up with Ered Luin, I don't think they should get a speed buff, if anything Ered Luin should be a bit slower.

[calixoxx]

Ditto, he's called Thorin Brokenshield for a reason. Although, his real strength comes from other heroes giving him leaderships, by himself he is managable. I agree their speed is a bit insane, should probably be as fast as Men, not Elves.

Overall Erebor actually sucks pretty bad right now, the only redeeming quality is the Axe Throwers, who can dominate early game, and obviously Thorin the 3rd who is insanely strong. Once ite gets to late game they fail against most other factions though. so overall they need buffs more than anything.

This really comes from all the armor leaderships, plus tower shields. Ditto nontheless, they are too tanky.

I think battlewagons are in a good spot, bordering on being too strong actually. They have practically no trample deceleration at all, and the barrels deal good damage too.

Well, since this only comes up with Ered Luin, I don't think they should get a speed buff, if anything Ered Luin should be a bit slower.

Get just 3 battalions of upgraded axethrowers and there is little to stop them from ripping buildings right down. The only disruption you could give is from cav generally, and a few camped out pikes will solve that issue. I simply argue that axethrowers should not do such universal damage. It's insane to watch upgraded axethrowers rip down an outpost so easily. Especially so few.

My overall point of Dwarves as a whole: They each have a single gameplay that is incredibly OP. You cannot kill even unupgraded Iron Hills. Yes, this even compensates for their slowness. Erebor RIPS through BOTH units AND buildings even when there are few of them. If your teams cav is on the other side of the map and just a few of these upgraded slip by, say goodbye to your buildings in literally seconds. Ered Luin are just a bit too fast as well.

[-DJANGO-]

My overall point of Dwarves as a whole: They each have a single gameplay that is incredibly OP.

- Agree with you.

Erebor definitely does not "suck pretty bad". If you look at all the agressive Buffs... just for example King Dain: +50 , +50 Attack! Insane for Edain. Axe Throwers and Ered Luin will most likely get a little nerf in 4.5.

Otherwise there has been long a long discussion in engl. forum about the role of the Dains: The Dain Dilemma
We have to see, if changes will be made. I really hope because right now these extreme conditions are the overkill for dwarven gameplay.

[calixoxx]

My overall point of Dwarves as a whole: They each have a single gameplay that is incredibly OP.

- Agree with you.

Erebor definitely does not "suck pretty bad". If you look at all the agressive Buffs... just for example King Dain: +50 , +50 Attack! Insane for Edain. Axe Throwers and Ered Luin will most likely get a little nerf in 4.5.

Otherwise there has been long a long discussion in engl. forum about the role of the Dains: The Dain Dilemma
We have to see, if changes will be made. I really hope because right now these extreme conditions are the overkill for dwarven gameplay.

I agree totally. Erebor does not 'suck' its just more easily played against than Iron Hills or Ered Luin currently. My point with Erebor is that each individual axe thrower battalion is so strong, they can actually take out incoming cavalry too! With forged blades, forget it. Glad to hear the axe thrower will get nerfed, I just hope its to both buildings and units.

[Elite KryPtik]

Archers and cavalry destroy Erebor. It's not even close. Cav can even beat upgraded Erebor pikes because they suck so bad. The redeeming qualities of Erebor, as I mentioned, are Axe Throwers, Thorin III, and of course Gimli, but other factions get buffs which let them decimate Erebor. Erebor just doesn't have any survivability, its all damage. They are almost like glass cannons, but other factions who have more broad range buffs for both armor AND damage destroy them. A good player can always pull it out, but comparing them to the other factions, Erebor are garbage right now.

[Sawman]

I am with Elite here Erebor in comparison to the other dwarf faction does in fact 'suck' they get wrecked by most other factions, with Ered Luin aside because everyone can agree they are stupidly broken because of their ridiculous speed and hero roster, the problem the Edain team did to Erebor and Iron Hills is that they made Erebor all damage and Iron Hills all armor and that just doesn't work in a game like this

Erebor is all about damage which in theory sounds really good but in a game like this if you have no armor you get destroyed by anything and everything, axe throwers and a few hero's do not make up for how easily Erebor units die and should be addressed

Iron Hills on the other hand are supposed to be more defensive and that they are but when a defensive dwarf army becomes this unstoppable steam roller there is nothing any faction aside from Ered Luin and maybe Mordor can do against it. With tower shields, heavy armor, Dain, Guardians armor buff, just creates this unstoppable force and if you even manage to stop it and it is so easy to get it back if you lose it, and I know what you will say, Erebor beats Iron Hills in the building destruction department which might be true but Iron Hills Guardians do really good damage anyway and they can tank base defenses like no other       

[Odysseus]

Yep, I still think the leadership switch was detrimental to both realms, besides Ered Luin outshining both drastically. The Leadership was pivotal for giving some versatility to the faction's roster, but now both realms are niche and too situational.

[Sawman]

The thing is in my group of friends we ban Ered Luin because its basically a free win and its not much fun for anyone, but in the current patch there is zero reason to pick Erebor ever, if you ban Ered Luin just because they are that bad.

 I'd say Iron Hills is border line broken right now, if they had better hero's they would be about just as bad as Ered Luin because right now all they have for useful hero's are Dain(it'd be nice if he had a full ability roster) Thorin the III which is arguably the best hero killer right now( the only better one is Erebor's Thorin) and Narin to some extent the rest are pretty bad but that's it. On the other hand all of Ered Luin's hero's are good, Dwalin not so much but that's it and they both have good units to back up these hero's. Erebor does have good hero's don't get me wrong but they don't have the unit support the others do

Just a little side note Dwarves rely on Guardians for most of the game and they all have a unique upgrade, but here's my problem with it Erebor's is pretty bad compared to the others and also considering that there is no point to getting it on more than one group of units. If this could be changed to just give a straight armor buff 20-25% it might then reach the level of the other two 

[calixoxx]

The focus should be on nerfing Ered Luin's speed slightly, nerfing Thorin Oakenshield's armor OR health. Erebor needs an axethrower debuff to unupgraded units AND structures with a Thorin III debuff on most stats. Erebor also needs a slight armor buff on basic infantry. Iron Hills need an armor debuff. It doesn't matter how slow or weak the units are to structures if nothing can kill them. If you get 3-4 fully upgraded guardian units into someones base, it's over for you most of the time.

Like I said before, each faction has a broken element to them that make them OP in the right circumstances. Erebor just has a bigger weakness than the rest. It doesn't change the fact that their axethrowers are too strong on practically everything.

[ChocoboKnight88]

I feel that the Iron Hills Infantry need a MILD speed buff. Last game I played, I had a battalion of Iron Hills Guardians closely chasing a Mordor Catapult to the other side of the map. They couldn't even stand to do damage to it until the catapult stopped moving.

They really need to be SLIGHTLY faster than the catapult because it was a rather frustrating thing to watch. By no means should their speed completely match the Mordor Catapult.

For example, Let's say the catapult had a speed of... 2.00. I would suggest making the Iron Hills Guardians 2.10. Enough to giving them a chance of maybe catching Scrawny Orcs pushing a big catapult.

[kreso]

Hi few things who are, in my opinion, op:
1. Axe throwers in Erebor, no need to deal more dmg to structures, there are 2 units to do it so. Pikes and guardians are good structures destroyer. Reason why they are op is why they have too big range and focused attacks(I mean every single units of battalion can attack at once) and there is armor reduced by Guardians it is to op.
2. Erebors battle wagon equiped with axe thrower can kite. So one battle wagon against 3 battalions of pikes who should counter them, wagon still can win. So hard to counter it, only way is to have faster carvalry but that is the case buff from exile camp and Imladris cav bonus movement speed by thier skill.
3.Ered Luin movements passive of units is too big. (no need explanation, it is obvious)
4. Thorin 3 is too op. (hope u dont need explanation)

All of this things in global are balanced, because Erebor have weak defensive and mobile stats, but have offensive stuff. Better make Erebor Guardians, 10% armor reduction instead od 15%, but give them more base damage or something like that. Axe throwers, you could make them lower range but add them bonus dmg to monster(they need too much for killing one troll). Make battle wagons more slower but less tremple slowdown. Nerf stats of Thorin III or make him cost more.
Regards!