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Autor Thema: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?  (Gelesen 17987 mal)

NetoD20

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #15 am: 27. Okt 2015, 14:17 »
This is what I wrote on Old Bilbo back in the Erebor Scout thread:

I love that you guys want to put old Bilbo in a scholar position/theme in my favourite faction, Imladris, but I think he should not have spellbook related powers. Even as a scholar, writer, and poet, Bilbo doesn't have any power or knowledge about elven magic, so I think he should stay away from the spellbook. Leave the spellbook for the sages and mages of Imladris.

I suggest instead that he could be a building feature instead of a hero, by buying an upgrade you could get Bilbo wandering inside Imladris castle or around the Library building (or whatever building he would be attached to) and by selecting him or the part of the building he ought to occupy you would have access to his power(s). I suggest for those to be primary minor Hero Supporter abilities with the theme of singing or reciting poetry or Ian Holm's voice saying something about the history of Middle-Earth. I remember reading in Fellowship that Bilbo often presented his literary works in Elrond's Hall of Fire to elves' delight. To be sure, Bilbo's abilities should be minor.

I really detest the idea of Old Bilbo fighting, even from a distant, or venturing outside the gates' of Imladris' castle, for by the time he arrived at Rivendell after forsaking the ring, his adventures were over. As I mentioned above I would have him as an immobile building feature to the Library, by "immobile" I mean only to say that the player wouldn't be able to control his walking, but the character would still stroll about the gardens of Rivendell of his own accord, and would be still be selectable in order to access his abilities.

Thus, being honest, I don't really like @DrHouse93's ideas of the Master Burglar or Experienced Traveler abilities. I agree with @Adrigabbro that Need for the One Ring doesn't really fit Imladris. I also don't like the idea of Old Bilbo sharing or stepping on the roles of Elrond and/or Erestor, that being similar to @hoho96's first option of focusing Old Bilbo on "wisdom" and "studies". Both Teaching of the Halflings and Weaknesses of Monsters are very similar to two of Erestor's abilities in 3.8.1, one in which he gave military council (and thus bonus) against a specifically selected enemy unit and another in which he gave experience to Imladris' farms. I don't think it is fitting for him to have a ability like Weaknesses of Monsters because, for all his adventures, what knowledge about monsters and other enemies could Bilbo provide to the long lived Noldor of Imladris that they do not already have?

Particularly I belive that Old Bilbo's abilities should focus, thematically speaking, not in his studies or wisdom, but in his creations' of literature and poetry. Mind that I'm not saying that Bilbo ins't studious or wise, just that his knowledge seems to me to pale in comparison of the elven scholars' own. I think a focus on his creative side, rather than studious, would do a great deal to make him unique in a faction devoted to knowledge and study.

I think he should be a hero/building feature with abilities toward hero and/or unit support thematically based in his songs, poems, and oration, as is mentioned in Fellowship (and I have already mentioned above) that he presented this pieces in Elrond's Hall of Fire to the elves' delight.

If going in this direction with Old Bilbo, I also think he should have a minor role in Imladris. That he shouldn't have more than three abilities, given that Imladris already has other hero and unit supporters, even though these are thematically different to Bilbo in their abilities.

I am thinking about abilities for Old Bilbo based on the suggestions and concept I made, but I do not wish to convey mechanics that I did not yet thought entirely through. In this case I will only share a general idea:

*Chronicle of Middle-Earth: Bilbo recalls an old story of Middle-Earth and makes it into a poem, it either warns against defeat or elevates the spirit of elves for a new victory. This could positively affect heroes in an area or all the common units inside the castle defending it.

*Adventurous Tale [there can definitely be a better name]: Bilbo narrates one of his old adventures to the humour of the elves, and fills Elrond's halls with joy and laughter.

*Praise to Elbereth Gilthoniel (I think Bilbo really made a song to Varda in Fellowship, but I'm not certain): Bilbo sings a praise to the stars of Elbereth, this soothes the elves in the castle and slowly cures them (by just a bit).

DrHouse93

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #16 am: 27. Okt 2015, 14:20 »
Quoting myself xD:
I think this represents Bilbo's personality quite well while he lives on Rivendell: mainly a support figure for Imladris' allies, but with the shadows of the past sometimes resurfacing on the heart of the brave Hobbit. What do you think about it?^^
Don't misunderstand me, I never intended him as a scout (I'm agree on you on that). Gildor is more than fit for that role. I imagined Bilbo as mainly a hero supporter with some thievery and Ring-greed skills xD (which would make him also slightly useful on the battlefield, and not having him permanently wander in the fortress. After all, he has Tuc blood, and he likes adventures, being also the reason why he left the Shire at the end ;))
Again, he shouldn't have too much damage and armor, because of course he's not a warrior and also he's old. But I also think that making him stay permanently in the fortress and completely uncapable of atleast defend himself wouldn't represent his personality at its most^^

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #17 am: 27. Okt 2015, 14:29 »
i also dont like to see bilbo permanently in the fortress 

kai69

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #18 am: 27. Okt 2015, 14:51 »
Maybe making him a summon from the farm, you use it and Bilbo with some elf warriors appear to defend the farm from enemies?

DrHouse93

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #19 am: 27. Okt 2015, 15:38 »
@Neto, even if I don't like Bilbo staying in the fortress permanently, I must say I always imagined him as he was when he left the Shire, and I forgot that indeed, as soon as he reaches Rivendell, his adventures are over. And I also agree on giving him a minor role.
Anyway, I'm not convinced by your idea, simply because I think this way Bilbo has a too small minor role. So, what about a mix of our ideas?

So Bilbo will slowly wander inside the Imladris base leaning on a staff (as seen in the Fellowship of The Ring. He could then use Gandalf the Black's animations). The player can't control his movement nor he can make him attack, but he can select him and use his abilities:

- Honorable Guest: Elves of Imladris and Dunedain as well love the presence of Bilbo. If fighting in a small radius close to him, they'll receive +15% damage and armor to protect the old Hobbit. Bilbo stops wandering if there are nearby enemies (this is also pretty limited, since Bilbo can't abandon the fortress, and anyway the radius is very small)

- Teaching of the Halflings (I really love this one. I think this is a modified and maybe more-fitted version): Hobbits love nothing more than things that grow. He teaches Erestor the Halflings' secrets of farming. Erestor is now able to supervise an Hobbit's farm, thus enhancing its production by 30%

- Experienced Traveler: Same as above (remember that Elrond just gives experience, while this is a bonus effect, which wears off after a while. Also, the selected hero must be close inside the fortress, since as I said Bilbo can't leave it)

- Praise to Elbereth Gilthoniel (I like this one, too): Bilbo sings a praise to the stars of Elbereth. This soothes the elves in the castle and slowly cures them

- Need of The One Ring: I have no ideas on how to implement it now with this new system. However, I insist on this one, because as I said, I know it doesn't fit for Rivendell to not seek the Ring, but this doesn't apply to Bilbo, since he's obvious he still has a small need of it, which openly manifest when he's close to it. So I will work on it^^

Forgot this scene?
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Okt 2015, 15:41 von DrHouse93 »

Gandalf The Gray

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #20 am: 27. Okt 2015, 16:27 »
NOOOT THAT SCENEEEE!!!!! [ugly] xD

Aragorn_Frodo

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #21 am: 27. Okt 2015, 20:26 »
At this time I believe that there is no way to put old Bilbo in the game that works well and is true to Bilbo.  I think the reason for that is that old Bilbo doesn't fit in with the game.  Old Bilbo does not do anything to help the War of the Ring efforts at all, and there is not a unique system that I have seen that would realistically (in middle-earth standards) benefit any faction according to his strengths.  So I think the best idea is to take him out of the game, until a good way to put him to use evolves, and at the moment settle for young Bilbo, who has a place in this game.

NetoD20

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #22 am: 27. Okt 2015, 21:30 »
I quite like the way you mixed our ideas @DrHouse93, I'm glad you liked my Praise to Elbereth idea. Honorable Guest is very good too :)
I don't know a good way to implement the Need for the One Ring ability, but it would do no harm to include it, if we get a good mechanic for it.

@Aragorn_Frodo, I kind of had that line of thinking, and agree partially to it. But I think it's too extreme to rule him out of the game, I think he can still be of very good use to Imladris' war effort as a sort of bard/minstrel/scholar/poet bound to the fortress. It would fittingly convey his life during the War of the Ring, and it would still be useful ingame.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Okt 2015, 21:45 von hoho96 »

Telperion

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #23 am: 30. Okt 2015, 21:25 »
I think he should have a minor role for Imladris, with abilities for hobbit farm .
He may be recrutable in hobbit farm like, Denethor for Gondor and gain level for each hobbit farms with this abilities:
- Protect the Shire :  call a couple of shirrifs to defend the farm for a short time.
- Halflings farming : increase farm production by 20%
- Unforgettable birthday party : heal units near the farm
- Dunedains friend : call permanently some dunedain ranger to protect the farm
I don't know if its possible but he should have an ability with a long cooldown to travel between the farms to protect them all. When he reachs a certain level he can travel a last time to the fortress where he can use his abilities on every farms.



KingdomofErebor

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #24 am: 4. Nov 2015, 17:01 »
Remember: Rivendell will have the hobbit farm on the settlements. Maybe there is some way to implement the old Bilbo? Discusse it.

@DrHouse: Some interesting ideas out there. ;)

Wow ok this has given me a few ides, so I'm thinking old Mr Baggins is recrutable from the hobbit farm? if not maybe he could be but I have a few ideas about his Abilities

I agree that old Bilbo is waaaaay past fighting age so he should be a wise old hobbit who looks after the youngsters and teaches them about the world. This would give him a more support unit style that works for a 111 year old hobbit!

Level 1: Scholar of the Shire: Bilbo loves to study old books and maps, learning all that there is to know about middle earth, Bilbo shares his knowledge with friendly units giving them experience (say half a level of experience depending on his current level)

Level 3: It was one small chest...: Bilbo Shares his treasures from his adventure with his friends (Spawns 1 chest perhaps using the design from the films) this gives the player 1000 resources

Level 5: The road goes ever on and on: Bilbo sets out on a new journey happily singing away , for a short time bilbo moves 50% faster and gains 30% armour. Maybe use the audio from the films for bilbo's singing ?

Level 7: A long expected party: much like Thranduils feast ability, Bilbo celebrates his 111th birthday, party tents and possibly the banner from the films "Happy Birthday Bilbo Baggins" are put up and hobbits dance and sing, near by units are healed as they share food and drink

Level 10: And what about Very old Friends? Gandalf the Grey is called to bilbo's side for a short time and uses his fireworks to attack nearby enemies. I don't know if this is possible but it would be so cool to have the line "Gandalf my old friend, this will be a night to remember" heard some how !

Hope you like my idea :)

Khazad Ai Menu!
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Nov 2015, 17:08 von KingdomofErebor »
The horns of hell are upon us!To Battle sons of Durin!

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #25 am: 5. Nov 2015, 02:00 »
I really like most of your ideas (especially the last one :), but I'm still not fine with Bilbo being recruited in the farm, for he never had anything to do with either rural lifestyle or managing farms. Maybe rather being available in the citadel after the farm is built?

The Dwarves are upon you as well! :)

KingdomofErebor

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #26 am: 5. Nov 2015, 09:44 »
Thanks man, yeah the only reason I said to recruit him form the farm is because he's a hobbit, and I'm assuming all of Imladris hobbit units (if any) are recruitable form there, I know he didn't really have anything to do with agriculture, however he did travel to Rivendell from the shire so I think it works better if he arrives form out side of the citadel

Khazad ai menu son of Durin!
The horns of hell are upon us!To Battle sons of Durin!

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #27 am: 6. Nov 2015, 02:56 »
Yes, he did travel from Shire, but he was always inside the walls... I mean, inside Rivendell, so it would be logical for him to be expected to be found in the citadel. That's at least my opinion.

"...son of Durin"... I'm actually flattered by this. Thank you, this means something to me :) Your words are more valuable than a yard long vein of mithril! :)

Darkslayer

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #28 am: 6. Nov 2015, 04:53 »
The big question: What happens to the old Bilbo, after he is no longer available at dwarven realm Erebor? We are open to suggestions, forth with your ideas! ;)
Imladirs scout seems like it would make the most sense to me. I know there probably already is one but I'm not sure what other way you could fit him in that would make sense. The idea of him being non-playable is interesting, but that's the thing - I'd prefer him to be playable. :P

Hüter

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Re: Bilbo, oh Bilbo - What happens to you?
« Antwort #29 am: 12. Nov 2015, 20:40 »
After having now fought for a while about Bilbo's best integration to Rivendell, but being not able to find one complete concept to present to the community, I wanted to share them anyway with you. Maybe somebody else gets inspired and finds a good conception. ;)
The first one is about how Bilbo develops:
Most of the heroes get stronger as they gain experience and level. But I think that for old Bilbo it could be more fitting having him loose attack, moving speed and health to show his decline from when he leaves the ring to Frodo to when he goes to Aman. In this way, he could be used for creeping at low level, while he stays in the fortress once he is more levelled and uses his abilities, which obviously should get stronger and more and more global as he looses physical strength. In addition, I would propose an alternative level system, as the ET did for other scout heroes. For me, Bilbo's main aim in his last years on earth was finishing his story. So, I thought that he could gain experience and new abilities could be unlocked, as the work on his book goes on (e.g when he reaches level 3, you can select "Out of the fire and into the frying pan", which, after a certain time unlocks the ability). This would allow him to level without fighting. For the abilities, I was thinking about something related to the stages of his journey, but I could not find anything, that would fit his role, be strong enough and at the same time not op, while being useful to Imladris too. But maybe somebody out there is more creative there.  ;)

Another idea I had was implementing Bilbo only content-wise but not as a playable character. When we last tested Imladris, the scriptorium (you might remember, else read here: http://www.moddb.com/mods/edain-mod/news/the-road-to-edain-40-the-last-homely-house) could not represent an equal option to the blacksmith. So I thought that Bilbo could be an upgrade to this building, which allows you to "write" the chapters of his story. Once it was "written", a hero may read it and get some benfits from it (e.g. if he reads the chapter of the trolls, every troll killed by that hero drops a treasure or something like that). One bad point of this concept is, that a high elve from Rivendell would surely not need Bilbo's novel teaching him how to fight monsters.

By reading attentively, you surely have noticed that both ideas lack of abilities. This is mainly because I found none. My only better idea was an interaction with the spellbook spell "Elrond's council": as Bilbo has (close) relations to most of the summoned heroes (except Boromir and Gimli, but as Gimli comes with Gloin, that's not a problem), he could have an ability, which makes the selected heroes stay longer on the battlefield. Boromir could simply be excluded of this mechanics. I could imagine it being a lvl 10 ability.

For now, that's all. Hope you liked it and maybe find some inspiration. I think together we can create a really unique system for a unique character. :)

Greetings, Hüter

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