New Iron Hills Unique Siege Weapon

[Fredius]

Sorry, did I ever say anything about the books? The crossbowmen were added to Isengard, because it would have been stupid for the army of Isengard not to have a weapon against the archers on the wall of Helms Deep. In fact, archers and spear-throwers of Isengard were mentioned in the books. They were replaced by crossbowmen to show that Isengard is technologically advanced.
The Galadhrim are a bit more difficult: I think they were added because of dramaturgic reasons. Peter Jackson (or somebody else, I don't know) didn't want the elves to do nothing. They should have their role in the story and not just sit in Lorien and don't care about anything. I don't think that they were added because they look good.

And even if I couldn't convince you about they difference between crossbows/Galadhrim and ballistas: Your argument ist invalid. I could critizise the ballistas for being added because of their appearence and I could do the same with the Galadhrim. How did you know that I like the Galadhrim when you wrote your post? I never said anything about them. I didn't say if I like them now.

I simply mentioned those things because you complained about the things that were added specifically in the Hobbit movies because they look awesome, but I don't see you complain about LOTR. But I apologise about mentioning the books, I see too many people complaining about the Hobbit Movies because they are not perfectly true to the books, while those people at the same time fail to see that LOTR has the exact same problem, and I'm getting a bit sick of them .

And to answer Dain's question, I myself think that they should replace the Catapults and have the same stats as the Isengard Ballista, because we're talking about Giant Iron Ballistas with Iron Bolts, which are perfectly suitable to destroy buildings. A second option that I too like is to add them as fortress expansions.

[Der Dunkle König]

Isengard had Ballistas so whats the problem of Dwarves having Ballistas even without the Chain Bolts!?

I never said that I am against ballistas without chains. I'm not sure if I want them, but if I want them, than the way korner described them.

PJ added Elves for the dramatic effect and to show that Elves actualyl take part in the War for the same reason he could have send Dwarves from Erebor there?

Dwarves of the Erebor were never introduces to the movie (except Gimli). But Lorien was. The usual audience, that didn't read the books, doesn't know about the Erbor, but it might ask itself why Galadriel doesn't do anything.
You might explain it that way. But in fact what you said isn't really false.

But that aside,PJ added the Dwarven Ballistas to show the inovative and engeering thinking and skills of the Dwarves,since as WETA stated Tolkien do not give full and complete discription of the Iron Hilsl Army and Aramement but rather describes a small Contingent of 500 Elite Veterans and I am avsolutely sure those weren't the Main nor the Whole Iron Hills Army,so PJ and WETA decided to create the culture and the army ofthe Iron Hills to its fullet jsut because Tolkien left a gap there!

The dwarves had to arrive at the mountain very quickly, why should they bring these heavy ballistas? And why did they use them at all, they could have protected themselves with shields and armor.

The use of those Chains is not absolutely and completely impossible!With right engeneering and craftsmanship it is possible but may be with smaller range!

You keep saying that, but nobody ever proved it. I will believe you that the chains are possible when someone presents me a real explanation, how exactly they can work. (But even if that happens I still wouldn't like they ballistas.)

But we discussed this long time ago and I do not wish to start over again so as I said in my previous comment lets continue the discussion for how and should be the Ballistas included but without the Chains!?

I think you' re right. As I sad, I could imagine small ballistas being implemented as a weapon against single, strong units (trolls, siege weapons). But I personally don't want chains or area-damage.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I think the IHs Castle Defence should be their Three Stone Catapults while the Ballista should be use instead of Catapults! Being Strong against Buildings and doing some moderate DMG or Knockback to Units!

About the Ballistas and thei Speed and slowing Down the Army on this picture you can see evidence that they ahve been actually pulled by Something,being it the Chariots or few Ram Riders we never Know!But they weren't pushed by Dwarves if that is what you mean! And as I said PJ just used the opporutny to create a Full and Compelte Dwarven Army since Toolkiend haven't and WETA and PJ even had awesome ideas about Iron Hills Crossbowmans which I bet no one here will like plus Edain uses Crossbows for Ered Luin even thoguh I think Crossbows are more DMG oriented than Short Bows! So the Ballsitas were jsut to show the skills of the Dwarves!

Well I could begin explaining again how the Chains are possible but too much time adn I already did it,you can look in LOTR Threads if you wish!

But still it is possible to be Extra Siege Unit which will be even better but woulnd't it be too much for Dwarves to have so much War Machines,but then again they are Dwarves so it is natural for them to have so...really tough decision for me at least 

[Gandalf The Gray]

i think the chain idea is awesome

agree. Gandalf should have a buff

Furthermore, what's the point of this?

i think he was mocking the topic i did about gandalf  walk

[ThorinsNemesis]

In any case, I don't think it would be a good idea if the balista is implemented without replacing the catapult, because then the balista will not be an unique siege weapon for the Iron Hills.
In my opinion the balista from BOTFA should replace the catapult of the Iron Hills; this will give more diversity to the Dwarves and give a chance to the Team to implement something unique for the Iron Hills  .
By the way, I have heard that Weta was planning to include in the EE Dwarven Crossbowmen, but I have never seen any pictures/concept art of them. If anyone has, can you post a picture of the Iron Hills crossbows by Weta?

[(Palland)Raschi]

PJ added Elves for the dramatic effect and to show that Elves actualyl take part in the War for the same reason he could have send Dwarves from Erebor there?

The reason is  as Dunkler König has already mentioned, that there was not presented any Dwarves in the movie  as a living and caring faction.
And by the way; Haldir himself tells the audience and Theoden King why PJ decided to Show them up at Helm's Deep:

"An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance"

Differently than in the Hobbit movies the developers tried to create a reference within the trilogy itself. The first great battle shown in the first movies is connected events and decisions. The motivation is logical and it is a good way the complete the character of Haldir appeared in the first movie as well. An negativ example in return would Beorns presentation in the Hobbit movies.

The dwarves had to arrive at the mountain very quickly, why should they bring these heavy ballistas? And why did they use them at all, they could have protected themselves with shields and armor.

Because they knew it is clone war time. Dain had foreseen that Thranduil's clone soldiers would shoot their arrows very porbably at the same time with the same angle and the most exact row you could build with elven clone eroopers. Therfore he could manage to place every ballista in the right distance to the elven army so that arrows and bolts would meet exactly in the air and do not miss each other.
In real wartime Dain just would have sent an ordinary army of dwarves and would not count on elven "clonish" behaviour.

Isengard needs a siege unit therfore their ballistas must do damage to buildings. And because of the fact that there is a good and logical reason for them beeing introduced in the LotR movie they are accepted by most players. The dwarven ballistas do not make any sense at all.
And that is a huge difference between Isengard and the Dwarves using ballistas in the movies.

OT Edit: It is quite annoying when there are introduced capital letters automatically by an auto correct programm instead of the correct small letters.

[LordDainIronfoot]

In any case, I don't think it would be a good idea if the balista is implemented without replacing the catapult, because then the balista will not be an unique siege weapon for the Iron Hills.
In my opinion the balista from BOTFA should replace the catapult of the Iron Hills; this will give more diversity to the Dwarves and give a chance to the Team to implement something unique for the Iron Hills  .
By the way, I have heard that Weta was planning to include in the EE Dwarven Crossbowmen, but I have never seen any pictures/concept art of them. If anyone has, can you post a picture of the Iron Hills crossbows by Weta?

I am absolutely fine iwth the Ballista replacing the Catapults and the Catapults as me and Melkor thought,can be used frothe Fortress Catapults so that we would not use the Unique Triple Catapult ofthe Iron Hills!
About the Crossbowmans,I have suggested long time ago that Iron HIlls should get Crossbwomasn because the Crossbow is more DMG oriented Rage Weapon and DMG is  IHs Main Strentght while Ered Luin should get Short Bows because Bows are better in deffense esepcialyl siege for their bigger Ranger and Volley Effect,plus Thorin and Kili used Short Bows which suggested that Ered Luin values and usses Bows as their primary Range Weapon but the Team said they will not chnage them because they think this way is better!Well Ia am fine with,nothing we can about that,but if you want I can show you COncept Arts of the Crossbows WETA Designed,the Soldiers would have look like all the others from the Movie ,the Crossbows would have been rather Unique!

WETA called it the "boar-lista" because of its Boar Themed look and unique firing system!But after that they decided to use something more Unique which shows the Dwarven Skills in engeneering and created this Multiple Arrow Crossbows again with Boar Motive...

I doubt the Team will dcide to ever use them but here you can at least see thm if you haven't already! 

PJ added Elves for the dramatic effect and to show that Elves actualyl take part in the War for the same reason he could have send Dwarves from Erebor there?

The reason is  as Dunkler König has already mentioned, that there was not presented any Dwarves in the movie  as a living and caring faction.
And by the way; Haldir himself tells the audience and Theoden King why PJ decided to Show them up at Helm's Deep:

"An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance"

Differently than the Hobbit movies they the developers tried to create a reference within the trilogy itself. The first great battle shown in the first movies is connected events and decisions. The motivation is logical and it is a good way the complete the character of Haldir appeared in the first movie as well. An negativ example in return would Beorns presentation in the Hobbit movies.

The dwarves had to arrive at the mountain very quickly, why should they bring these heavy ballistas? And why did they use them at all, they could have protected themselves with shields and armor.

Because they knew it is clone war time. Dain had foreseen that Thranduil's clone soldiers would shoot their arrows very porbably at the same time with the same angle and the most exact row you could build with elven clone eroopers. Therfore he could manage to place every ballista in the right distance to the elven army so that arrows and bolts would meet exactly in the air and do not miss each other.
In real wartime Dain just would have sent an ordinary army of dwarves and would not count on elven "clonish" behaviour.

Isengard needs a siege unit therfore their ballistas must do damage to buildings. And because of the fact that there is a good and logical reason for them beeing introduced in the LotR movie they are accepted by most players. The dwarven ballistas do not make any sense at all.
And that is a huge difference between Isengard and the Dwarves using ballistas in the movies.

OT Edit: It is quite annoying when there are introduced capital letters automatically by an auto correct programm instead of the correct small letters.

It has nothign to do wit Dwarve not being loving and caring,as we saw Dwarves are one ofthe most loyal friends once you earth their respect!It is just that the Dwarves haven't been shown llike the Lorien Elves back then just as korner said!And Men of Dale and especialyl Erebor Dwarves had key Role in the win of the Free People agaisnt Sauton i nthe Battle of Dale!
While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves!

About the quick arrival,I think I ahve proved good enough evidence that the Dwarven Ballistas were Pullled by Animals or Chariots not pushed by Dwarves so yeah they weren't as slow as you think! And if Dain thought they coudl reach the Montain quick enough even with them then it is better to come prepared than not!NOt stationing the Ballista within Range is not unrealistic nor not possible he simply knows the range of his Artillery and positioned it so that Elven Army can be in Range from that Hill,Elves beign Clone has nothing to do with their Arrow Volleys,thats what a Arros Volley are all the Archers in range Fire their Arrows from same Angle around 40-45 degrees depending on where their Target is so that they could do more DMG and Firing the Ballist when they see the Volley Flying isn ot mere chance nor luck it is siple calibaration and observing and knowing your Machines!

As I said please guys let's stop hating the Movie,let's stop discussing things we alread ydiscussed long time and just talk about on how and where we can and should we intagrate the Iron Ballista WITHOUT the CHAINS!?

Greetings and best regards to all!

[(Palland)Raschi]

While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves!

And he had a good reason to do so. It should be a movie for everyone not just for Lotr nerds who have read the books more than ten times.
A movie is not a book and a different form of presenting a story. You have relatively  a short period of time to tell the audience what should be told. Therefore you need to make things compact, straight and reasonable for people who do not know the plot at all. The real art is to do so but also conveying the spirit and quintessence of the novel the movie is based on. There was no need to show dwarves and therefore there was not; that is all.

The dwarven ballista, elven clone arrow battle is senseless. There is nothing to justify this Scene at all.
If you had ever shoot an arrow you would realise that. You almost cannot see the arrow after releasing it. And at least not when beeing the one the arrow was shot at.
Even with headphones on the Dwarves would neither be able to shoot their bolts at the same time when the same (!) peak of the arrows is reached nor would it possible to position the ballistas without greater effort to cover every part at one line.
This scene is insanely accurate and therefore not feeling right or fitting. It is highly artificial and has nothing to do with the Tolkien world I like.
It is not about hating but about consistency and reasonability.

[ThorinsNemesis]

Thanks for showing the crossbow concept art LordDain, the crossbows look fantastic! It's a shame that they weren't used in BOTFA  .
Also, while I was playing the mod, I was thinking the same as you - it didn't seem fitting that Thorin and Kili used bows but Ered Luin got crossbows instead, crossbows should have been used by Iron Hills.
In any way, it's a pity that the Team won't use the crossbow design from Weta, it looks awesome 
^^I don't see anything unrealistic in that scene, and I don't understand why most people say it's 'un-Tolkien'. I liked the balistas and I think it's a very plausible weapon.

[LordDainIronfoot]

While what you say is true about the "Last Alliance",PJ negelcted and didn't show the presence of big Khazad-Dum Dwarven Host led by Durin IV so yeah it is not only Men and Elves!

And he had a good reason to do so. It should be a movie for everyone not just for Lotr nerds who have read the books more than ten times.
A movie is not a book and a different form of presenting a story. You have relatively  a short period of time to tell the audience what should be told. Therefore you need to make things compact, straight and reasonable for people who do not know the plot at all. The real art is to do so but also conveying the spirit and quintessence of the novel the movie is based on. There was no need to show dwarves and therefore there was not; that is all.

The dwarven ballista, elven clone arrow battle is senseless. There is nothing to justify this Scene at all.
If you had ever shoot an arrow you would realise that. You almost cannot see the arrow after releasing it. And at least not when beeing the one the arrow was shot at.
Even with headphones on the Dwarves would neither be able to shoot their bolts at the same time when the same (!) peak of the arrows is reached nor would it possible to position the ballistas without greater effort to cover every part at one line.
This scene is insanely accurate and therefore not feeling right or fitting. It is highly artificial and has nothing to do with the Tolkien world I like.
It is not about hating but about consistency and reasonability.

Well when I was introduced to Middle Earth it wasn't trough the Books but it was the Movies,simply I have been a small child back then around 10 years old and I loved the Movies even though I didn't understand msot of them and I lvoed the Elves the most back then until after The Return of the King I got involved with the Books and found out mroe details and time by tiem Dwaerves become the appeal to me more thats all! I am well aware of why so many things are chanig or missing,I am not an idiot and I never dasi I have problem with thigs like Battles in Lorien,in Mirkwood,in Dale,Forts of Isen and etc missing,simply not enough Time and resourses!But in the Last Allince scenes he could have showed a glimpse of Dwarven Army jsut as he showed glmpses of Elves and Men but even so I have no problem with it,I just sated it as a fact thats all,no need to go on offensive Mode there!

Thanks for showing the crossbow concept art LordDain, the crossbows look fantastic! It's a shame that they weren't used in BOTFA  .
Also, while I was playing the mod, I was thinking the same as you - it didn't seem fitting that Thorin and Kili used bows but Ered Luin got crossbows instead, crossbows should have been used by Iron Hills.
In any way, it's a pity that the Team won't use the crossbow design from Weta, it looks awesome 
^^I don't see anything unrealistic in that scene, and I don't understand why most people say it's 'un-Tolkien'. I liked the balistas and I think it's a very plausible weapon.

Same here mate,but there isn othign we can do! At least IHs have really good Archers in Edain and we should enjoy them!
Well because everyone has its own version Middle Earth and Tolkien's World and some are fine with some tihngs but with others not! For me let's say the Gundpowder thing in Isengard is not so MIddle Earth style but other people think it is absolutely fine! No point in arguing about that anymore my friend!

[Walküre]

i think the chain idea is awesome

agree. Gandalf should have a buff

Furthermore, what's the point of this?

i think he was mocking the topic i did about gandalf  walk

Yes, I imagined it.

I deleted the comment.
This kind of behaviour is totally unacceptable.

[Fredius]

The reason is  as Dunkler König has already mentioned, that there was not presented any Dwarves in the movie  as a living and caring faction.
And by the way; Haldir himself tells the audience and Theoden King why PJ decided to Show them up at Helm's Deep:

"An Alliance once existed between Elves and Men. Long ago we fought and died together. We come to honor that allegiance"

Differently than in the Hobbit movies the developers tried to create a reference within the trilogy itself. The first great battle shown in the first movies is connected events and decisions. The motivation is logical and it is a good way the complete the character of Haldir appeared in the first movie as well. An negativ example in return would Beorns presentation in the Hobbit movies.

So you think the best way to introduce this caring faction is to let them fight in a siege where they had no business, and at the same time kill a character in a place where he shouldn be present at all? I'm sure they could have introduced the Elves in a different way, and not copy-paste that there was an old allegiance between Men and Elves. You might as well justify the fact that there were Trolls present in the Battle of the Armies movie, because Orcs and Trolls have an "old allegiance" together.

Because they knew it is clone war time. Dain had foreseen that Thranduil's clone soldiers would shoot their arrows very porbably at the same time with the same angle and the most exact row you could build with elven clone eroopers. Therfore he could manage to place every ballista in the right distance to the elven army so that arrows and bolts would meet exactly in the air and do not miss each other.
In real wartime Dain just would have sent an ordinary army of dwarves and would not count on elven "clonish" behaviour.

Isengard needs a siege unit therfore their ballistas must do damage to buildings. And because of the fact that there is a good and logical reason for them beeing introduced in the LotR movie they are accepted by most players. The dwarven ballistas do not make any sense at all.
And that is a huge difference between Isengard and the Dwarves using ballistas in the movies.

You think that "clonish behavior" never happened with archers? The reason that archers shoot their arrows as a unit is because the chance to escape a barrage is smaller than when archers shoot indivually at will. I'm aware of the fact that Ballista chains meeting arrows is not realistic, but I don't see a reason to hate it either; it's just a movie. I just love the fact that they found a way to counter the superior Elven archers, even if it isn't perfectly realistic.

I don't see any reason why the dwarven ballistas don't make sense at all, they are just siege weapons like the Isengard Ballista or the Mordor Catapult. And you forget that the Isengard Ballistas in the movies weren't used against buildings either, but to form a base for the big siege ladders, now THAT is unrealistic.

[(Palland)Raschi]

I also stated, that books and movies are different forms of presenting a Story. If you are such a wise Person, tell me, how the Elves should be introduced in the second movies without a greater loss of Screen time and understanding of the ordinary audience ?
What you said about trolls and orcs is absolutely not comparable because there is no story reference.
The Elven Helm's Deep plot has a huge Story reference. It tries to connect events and factions which got a lot of screentime in the first movie.
Those parts do not stand  besides each other incoherently and differently than in the Hobbit Trilogy the connection makes sense and does not thow every bounds to the Tolkien world and books away (like f.e. the Angmar-Erebor Plot Connection does).

You think that "clonish behavior" never happened with archers? The reason that archers shoot their arrows as a unit is because the chance to escape a barrage is smaller than when archers shoot indivually at will. I'm aware of the fact that Ballista chains meeting arrows is not realistic, but I don't see a reason to hate it either; it's just a movie. I just love the fact that they found a way to counter the superior Elven archers, even if it isn't perfectly realistic.

Everything Thranduils clones do is synchronous: Marching, Standing, reloading and firing arrows. NO Group of archers look and act like this. Watch "clout Shooting" Videos and you will realize this. Differntly than in Lotr where you do see that Elves are acted by real People and that they do not have this Kind of moving and acting.
There is a difference between disciplined acting and artifical synchronous acting.
It is not about hating, but inconsistency.

[LordDainIronfoot]

I enjoyed the Elves at Helms Deep but I would have been more happy if Rohan dealt with the Battle on their own like in the Movie with reinforcments from Erkebrand in the end and etc. but I am fien with the Elves too!

The Clone Behaivour is to show that the Elves are not Human but much mroe "perfected" beings with unnatural capabilities and skills honed with thousands of years fo expirience and thraining thats why I am fien with their Movement,plus they al lrelease the Arrows on Command so they do not fly perfectly in synchron but very close to it!
With the same Logic can you explain how the Elves at Helms Deep Fire like Walkign Machine Guns with Arrows and even how can the be so accurate like those behind the Walls and hwo they later hitted al lthe Uruc Hai in the ehads!?They are Elves thats why they are not simple Humans!

But I really think we go way out of topic so please guys lets return on the main issue at hand about how and why shold be the Ballista used and without the Chains!

Greetings!

[(Palland)Raschi]

With the same Logic can you explain how the Elves at Helms Deep Fire like Walkign Machine Guns with Arrows and even how can the be so accurate like those behind the Walls and hwo they later hitted al lthe Uruc Hai in the ehads!?They are Elves thats why they are not simple Humans!

There is a difference between disciplined acting and artifical synchronous acting.
In Lotr they were mostly actors therefore you saw (minor but significant) discrepencies.