Battlewagons Improvements

[Walküre]

The German forums are now officialy aware of this suggestion :

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32234.0.html

Now let's see what the Team thinks about the suggestion.

As usual, sincere gratitude for your remarkable efforts, Fredius.
It's very significant for the English Community 

[LordDainIronfoot]

Thank you Fredius for that hard work and the spared time,I am more than grateful!
I apologize to all for my absence but I have some big personal problems and have lost my will and motivation xi hope tp return soon!

Greetings and best regards from the Lord of the Iron Hills! :-)

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

Now let's see what the Team thinks about the suggestion.

The team is around here, too. You dont have to post that in the german section to keep our attention. Finally, we read every comment in our forum.
But i think its very great that you try to cooperate with the german users.

[CragLord]

But i think its very great that you try to cooperate with the german users.

After so much spent time on this suggestion in thinking and graphical polishing, we thought that it would be nice to share this with whole community, and we are eager to hear opinions and thoughts about this from german side of forum.
As one of members who supported and helped with polishing of this idea from beginning, I would like to discuss with german members about this idea. What I mostly fear is that idea could be understood in wrong way from beginning of discussion, because it is new one on german part of forum (as complete proposal), and on english forum this idea had long polishing process (and that process still lasts, there are some mini "stuff" more to discuss). Simply "wrong" understanding of some parts could lead "momentum" of discussion in wrong way... And on this topic we discussed about the most of issues in a detailed way, so there wasn't possibility of wrong understanding of some suggestion parts etc.
What we are on the other hand "short", is to develop maybe proper discussion with german members on that topic, of course because our language "barrier".

Best regards,
CragLord

[Elite KryPtik]

I shouldn't worry crag, the pool overwhelmingly supports the idea here, and I'm sure the German side will have similar results

[CragLord]

Yes, I hope that results will be similar on German side also.

As I have said this is officially "second" final version, so now we can start thinking about third one.
Now, guys I had couple of games today with Erebor mainly, and I have tried to test as much as possible current battle wagons.
Results are pretty same, instant pike trample destruction (which should be in my opinion), and pretty overpowered damage from standard swordsmen attack, and I hope this will be changed in near future. But mostly what I wanted to test was Oil casks, as much as possible.
Currently in game, Oil casks do area damage against enemy units and do 0 damage to structures.

Now, to take a look at our suggested abilities and their comparison.
I find crossbow ability and shield ability pretty decent ones and equal in their comparison. But this Flash bombs are a bit undefined still and I think weaker then those two (this is also I think good time to ask some balance testers about comparison). What I want to say, our current suggestions about this improvement ability is to replace damage ability on units with stun effect and to add damage on buildings. Which in general won't be so useful as shield activation ability after which we can use "comfortably" (in some level ofc) wagons to destroy pike formation and trample them for some time, or crossbow ability which will do some decent damage to enemies (we also haven't define some things about this, so I will also try to define them later with your help ), so flash bombs are bit underpowered. We can't damage enemy units (instead we stun them in area and hope that after that we could preform some effective trample, which ofc isn't certain thing like bonuses we get from crossbow (in term of damage) and from shields (in term of defence)) and we suggested damage on buildings which I find really suitable in term of Erebor faction (after all current Oil casks (or flash bombs as their improved version) are flammable liquids and they should damage buildings in first place in my opinion).
So what I find a bit out of place is that we replace certain current damage on units with stun effect which doesn't "claim" us certain damage or successful possibility to damage after it with chariots in trample (what I want to say is that experienced players always use pikes in combination with other units, pikes always protect them, so we will be able in that situation to stun those enemy units in area but they will stay protected by pikes and our instant trample idea is wasted in some way...  I have also reconsidered situation, we stun enemy units and then with our range units we do damage, but then we can't use trample again on them (because of pikes) and enemy units will also probably have backup by their range units etc, so in general we couldn't use trample in decent way).

So I have thought a lot about these things and I think we should also reconsider next proposals:

• To add building damage to current Oil cask and improve it's current damage on units (I have played against Mordor AI in one game and 1 barrel was enough to kill those basics orcs (of free cost), but later when I played against Gondors AI, I needed more then 3 barrels to did decent damage on Gontor units), current one is a bit low.
  In my experience from some of games I played today. Simply we need more then 3 wagons or more then 3 barrels to make decent damage.
  
  So maybe we should keep name of this Oil Cask, and buff it with more damage on units and add siege damage for buildings (and/or to change name to Flash bombs, Flash Flame etc, it is irrelevant right now, need to discuss about effects...).
  
  
• Also what we can suggest, which is I think reasonable, is to buff damage on units and add some slow effect on them instead stun effect, and too add damage on buildings also.
  Those were my thoughts, so 2 more ideas beside current one to reconsider about.
  
  

• Concerning the "Flash-Bomb": I had an idea,were the Barrel explodes in a huge explosion, dealing strong damage to Buildings and knocking enemy units back (with dealing less damage).

  
  So to sum, same damage as current Oil cask to units with effect of knock-back + stronger damage to buildings. Also if possible when dealing damage to buildings to have knock back effect on nearby enemy units.
  
  

Now few things about crossbow which we haven't determined yet.
We have suggested that crossbow will be activation ability which will be active for 10-15 sec and then will cool down until it will be again ready for use. So we haven't be precised.
I also got some thoughts about this, so I tried to describe usage in a bit more detailed way.

• We can suggest this ability as selective activation one, this will meant that after we use it, we need to point with proper cursor from gameplay ( like this one: , SCCAttMagic cursor) on single target. After we select that single target crossbow shoots some determined number of shoots on that target if target is in range (range and damage of shoots like number of shoots are balance things and we should leave that aside and to team, we should only discuss about idea in general, please keep that in mind.) 
  So in this way, crossbow will be good against single targets like monsters etc (in order not to make overpowered suggestion I suggest that ability shouldn't be able to use on heroes (if we try in game should pop up SCCNoAction cursor: ) )
  
  Also what occurs to my mind, is possible if we for example select in this way soldier from battalion, that after crossbow shoots kill selected one, continue to shoot on units from same battalion. So, we could simply use this as activation ability with selective target in good good against single target or whole battalions (but only one battalion, basically as we selected only one battalion).
  
  
• Second thought is to just activate ability and crossbow will automatically shoot on the nearest enemy, and ability will last for some determined duration. Of course there will be determined range of this crossbow etc.
  
  
• And third suggestion is to have area effect (similar to Legolas's Rain of Arrows), there will be determined damage of shoots and number of them (or duration in general) and it will shoot bolts in area on any unit, one shoot by one (not more arrows (bolts) in same time as Legolas).  
  
  

So, guys, what do you think about this?
Be free to share any thoughts and suggestions!

Best Regards,
CragLord

[Elite KryPtik]

So, before posting my thoughts I just want to note that my initial idea for Flash Flame was just basically a reskin of the Oil Casks to match the film, you guys are the ones who came up with making it anti building. Anyways on to my thoughts.

If we look at the Erebor sub-faction as a whole, they are simply not effective on the field of battle. Most of their formations and special abilities revolve around damaging buildings or defending better in castles. Simply put, Erebor is not ever picked by skilled players online, the vast majority go with Iron Hills for the speed and aggression, and Ered Luin follows at a close second. Erebor are only really effective when defending or assaulting fortresses (Helms Deep, etc.). Therefore, I see no reason why we should change this for their war chariots. The rest of the faction isn't so great on the field of battle, so why mshould the chariots have an exception? I personally am quite fine with the ability as it has been presented, it synergizes with the rest of the faction very well.

In terms of the crossbow, I think it should be the same as Legolas' Arrow Wind, you target a specific area with your cursor, and the crossbow fires a set number of bolts at all units in that area for a set time, even if they leave the area of the cursor. This makes the most sense to me in terms of making it function in game.

[Odysseus]

+1 to Elite's suggestion.

[CragLord]

So, before posting my thoughts I just want to note that my initial idea for Flash Flame was just basically a reskin of the Oil Casks to match the film, you guys are the ones who came up with making it anti building. Anyways on to my thoughts.

If we look at the Erebor sub-faction as a whole, they are simply not effective on the field of battle. Most of their formations and special abilities revolve around damaging buildings or defending better in castles. Simply put, Erebor is not ever picked by skilled players online, the vast majority go with Iron Hills for the speed and aggression, and Ered Luin follows at a close second. Erebor are only really effective when defending or assaulting fortresses (Helms Deep, etc.). Therefore, I see no reason why we should change this for their war chariots. The rest of the faction isn't so great on the field of battle, so why should the chariots have an exception? I personally am quite fine with the ability as it has been presented, it synergizes with the rest of the faction very well.

In terms of the crossbow, I think it should be the same as Legolas' Arrow Wind, you target a specific area with your cursor, and the crossbow fires a set number of bolts at all units in that area for a set time, even if they leave the area of the cursor. This makes the most sense to me in terms of making it function in game.

Thanks guys for feedback, I hope we will get some more thought from others about those suggestions.
Ok Elite, I am just trying to take into consideration some facts, nothing direct to you or to ability's name you have suggested.
As you have said we have suggested that siege damage not you, and I really don't have problem with that. From "consistency" view, those bombs or casks or barrels should be filled with flammable liquids or flammable matter so it is real to expect some siege damage from this ability on buildings. I don't say that is necessary for Erebor in term of balance (they already have enough siege damage), but from consistency view I have and general siege "look" of faction I find that justified. What I found a bit "risky move" is damage we have eliminated on units. I just have similar look as you, but maybe lesser balance or PvP experience. Simply I agree that Erebor is specific dwarven faction as you have described it. And that isn't great in field of battle. Because of facts that you with units can't do (damage for example) as your current enemy (for example some more offensive faction), I find current damage area effect of Oil cask as supportive ability.
Simple situation is that you have 2 battle wagons (one upgraded with heal second with banners) on back of your army, doing supporting role. When your enemy and your infantry start fighting, you cast 2 Oil casks and do some area damage on enemy's infantry units, so basically, you have helped you infantry, make their job easier (and if we even increase it a bit more, it would do decent job). Of course that is current situation with wagons, we mainly use them on back as supportive units in general, not concerning only Erebor (I hope with this proposal that will be changed). But simply is worthy to lose such damage in game for faction which isn't great on field of battle as you have said? That was my point of view, and because of it, I have suggested those 2 proposals in my previous comment.
Now what also I want to ask you is what will be usage of stun effect, and how it will be in synergy with Erebor? As defensive mechanism I presume.
I really don't have problem with current name or current effect we have suggested, as I have said from our side this is finished proposal, and team can take it and reshape it, in any term. Just before that happened I wanted we take some more facts into consideration.

Now concerning Crossbow suggestions from my previous comment, I just hope that mechanism doesn't require standing in one place as Legolas does when he "channeling" this ability.

Greetings,
Crag

[Aklas]

Hi there,
First: I totally support the idea of changing the War Chariots of the Dwarves.

Concerning the "Flash-Bomb": I had an idea,were the Barrel explodes in a huge explosion, dealing strong damage to Buildings and knocking enemy units back (with dealing less damage), similar to the earthquake-ability of the "Dwarven-Create-A-Hero" with a range like Gimlis Jump. I think this would be a great addition to the Erebor and supports the idea of Anti-Building-Faction. I also think the name "Flash-Bomb" doesent fit really, cause a "Flash-Bomb" only stuns units (because its VERY bright) and dealing absolutly no damage against buildings.

I think the idea of "Arrow Wind" for the Crossbow is realy great (already postet this idea in the German Forum on wednessday ^^). If the War Chariot can't move while channeling, my second idea was an Ability like the "Arrow rain" from the Spell Book of Gondor (Also Spell Book Ability of Mordor, i think) but not that huge and strong.

Greetings
Aklas

[CragLord]

Hello Aklas,

Welcome to topic.
Thank you for your support, and we are glad to know about it.

Concerning the "Flash-Bomb", I personally find your idea very nice.
Now, concerning name and current "general" suggestion of effects it will stay as official one for now.
I agree that Flash Bomb as title is correlated with current stun effect we suggested, and it is less correlated to damage on buildings, so you have right about it.
Know that all of this is subject for change in eyes of team, so everything is possible before this idea is implemented (if it get implemented anyway ).
So because of that, I personally find very useful situation that we suggest as more as possible "consistency" proposals about this, so team will have good base for thinking about it.
I would collect all proposals concerning this Erebor ability and IH ability for chariots (and great shields ability for Ered Luin if someone has) and include them as material to think about in general post (something similar we have done with wheel spikes properties). So every idea is welcome.

Yes, your idea about "Arrow Wind" was pretty nice, I have managed to read it using translator.  So, after that, I have started this "third" polishing process of this proposal. 
I don't agree about your "Arrow Rain" power suggesiton, I personally find it out of place, simply it is not correlated to using of crossbow (or way in which this crossbow works).
So I am against it.

Best Regards,

CragLord

[Fredius]

Hello people, I'm a little bit busy in real life at the moment, so I can't be very active as I used to. For the people who haven't checked the poll in the German forums, I can tell you that our suggestion, like Elite predicted, has a majority of fans who agree with our idea (30 votes in favor VS 12 votes against our suggestion!).

However, some members disagree a lot about the implementation of the automatic crossbow in general, because it's not something that fits with Dwarves. Dwarves are good with their hands, but not inventers is what a member said. Also the fact that such a heavy chariot is near impossible to be pulled by just one ram is also something that some fans have noted. Changing the name of Oil Casks to "Flash Bombs" is also unnecessary, especially because it doesn't correspond with the anti-building effect. Like Craig said, at the moment the name is not important, and I fully agree with him. I personally suggest to just keep the name Oil Cask, because I don't think either one of us in both German and English forums will have a problem with the original name.

Also guys, it's important to know that the Dwarven realms will receive a major overhaul for the upcoming beta, both gameplaywise and visually. Depending on what kind of changes the Realms will get we might have to change the concept a little bit.

[Odysseus]

What about ''Barrel Bomb''? I think it has a nice ring to it

[CragLord]

Hello people, I'm a little bit busy in real life at the moment, so I can't be very active as I used to. For the people who haven't checked the poll in the German forums, I can tell you that our suggestion, like Elite predicted, has a majority of fans who agree with our idea (30 votes in favor VS 12 votes against our suggestion!).

However, some members disagree a lot about the implementation of the automatic crossbow in general, because it's not something that fits with Dwarves. Dwarves are good with their hands, but not inventers is what a member said. Also the fact that such a heavy chariot is near impossible to be pulled by just one ram is also something that some fans have noted. Changing the name of Oil Casks to "Flash Bombs" is also unnecessary, especially because it doesn't correspond with the anti-building effect. Like Craig said, at the moment the name is not important, and I fully agree with him. I personally suggest to just keep the name Oil Cask, because I don't think either one of us in both German and English forums will have a problem with the original name.

Also guys, it's important to know that the Dwarven realms will receive a major overhaul for the upcoming beta, both gameplaywise and visually. Depending on what kind of changes the Realms will get we might have to change the concept a little bit.

Hello Fred.
Those are great news about votes, and we are happy that German side also recognize idea in good way and its potential in general.

I will try to give my personal "answer" on your summary of german side.

First concerning that crossbow matter in general, I presonally find it as really engineering stuff, and I agree that dwarves were mainly miners, blacksmiths, jewelry makers etc But in same time they were hell of warcraftsmen, hell of engineers if we take into consideration buildings etc. I agree with statement that automatic crossbow is a pretty nasty thing, it is very inovative machine, but I presonally find its usage very justifed from aspect that dwarves already use normal crossbow (also IH soldiers use it now in last update, so I really see this automatic crossbow fitting for IH now). And knowledge needed for making of normal crossbow probably presents base for making of this automatic crossbow. Simply I agree it is inovative but I think they were able to make it, simply, we have already balistas, catapults in game. So there is enough engineering knowledge in term of making contrivance in general, and this automatic crossbow in my opinion presents something very similar just oriented in a bit different way.

Now concerning those "consistency" problems about chariot weight etc.
I personaly could understand consistency problems if we are talking about some real life stuff, or some real life engineering problems in general, but this is probably the most irrelevent excuse against this suggestion I have ever heard/seen. Let me explain.
First thing is that we are mainly here proposing skin polishing and adding some properties in correlation with that new skin. So that is main thing which all "supporters" of that consistency weight problem should understand.
Second, first thought (can be seen on first page of this topic) was to add 2 pulling animals. We also reconsider this, but FG was clear, that isn't possible with current model. There exists only animation for one pulling animal.
Then, in game already exists a lot of similar consistency problematic units.
I understand that isn't reason to add more, but current battlewagon unit is also one of them, simply current wagon in consistency terms was probably to heavy to be bulled by one ram, and nobody probably ever saw that as problem. And suddenly now when we have suggested new skin, this is problem. Also not to mention (almost whole in iron) iron Isenguard's balista pushed by 2 childish uruks etc.
To underline this, I am also aware about those consistency problems, but simply in my opinion they are not so important when we take into consideration situation with other machines in game or mod.
Concerning name for ability of Erebor, am I completely to leave that for team at the end. Simply I wanted to collect as more as we could of suggestions of ability effects and suggested names and to leave that to ET. They will  probably (if they desided to implement this in first place) give their personal touch and remake good part of this suggestion. I presume that.
As one of supporters of this idea Aklas, have said, that "Flash" part idicates to stun effect, and I really agree with him, if ability remain with stun effect, then we should keep that Flash in name etc
Barrel (as Odysseus suggested above ) in name for some knock back and damage on buildings or vanila Oil cask as simple one on which we are already used to... Simply I would leave this to the team.

Concerning that last update, I am like the most of you, very excited, and I agree, we should wait for rest of dwarven news, and then to try to polish suggestion. But I think that 90% from our side (our ability to suggest/help etc) is probably over, and all those adjustments should be done by team. ET will know how to implement this suggestiong in correlation with latest dwarven changes.

Best regards Fred!

Crag

[Elite KryPtik]

Hello people, I'm a little bit busy in real life at the moment, so I can't be very active as I used to. For the people who haven't checked the poll in the German forums, I can tell you that our suggestion, like Elite predicted, has a majority of fans who agree with our idea (30 votes in favor VS 12 votes against our suggestion!).

However, some members disagree a lot about the implementation of the automatic crossbow in general, because it's not something that fits with Dwarves. Dwarves are good with their hands, but not inventers is what a member said. Also the fact that such a heavy chariot is near impossible to be pulled by just one ram is also something that some fans have noted. Changing the name of Oil Casks to "Flash Bombs" is also unnecessary, especially because it doesn't correspond with the anti-building effect. Like Craig said, at the moment the name is not important, and I fully agree with him. I personally suggest to just keep the name Oil Cask, because I don't think either one of us in both German and English forums will have a problem with the original name.

Also guys, it's important to know that the Dwarven realms will receive a major overhaul for the upcoming beta, both gameplaywise and visually. Depending on what kind of changes the Realms will get we might have to change the concept a little bit.

Hello Fred.
Those are great news about votes, and we are happy that German side also recognize idea in good way and its potential in general.

I will try to give my personal "answer" on your summary of german side.

First concerning that crossbow matter in general, I presonally find it as really engineering stuff, and I agree that dwarves were mainly miners, blacksmiths, jewelry makers etc But in same time they were hell of warcraftsmen, hell of engineers if we take into consideration buildings etc. I agree with statement that automatic crossbow is a pretty nasty thing, it is very inovative machine, but I presonally find its usage very justifed from aspect that dwarves already use normal crossbow (also IH soldiers use it now in last update, so I really see this automatic crossbow fitting for IH now). And knowledge needed for making of normal crossbow probably presents base for making of this automatic crossbow. Simply I agree it is inovative but I think they were able to make it, simply, we have already balistas, catapults in game. So there is enough engineering knowledge in term of making contrivance in general, and this automatic crossbow in my opinion presents something very similar just oriented in a bit different way.

Now concerning those "consistency" problems about chariot weight etc.
I personaly could understand consistency problems if we are talking about some real life stuff, or some real life engineering problems in general, but this is probably the most irrelevent excuse against this suggestion I have ever heard/seen. Let me explain.
First thing is that we are mainly here proposing skin polishing and adding some properties in correlation with that new skin. So that is main thing which all "supporters" of that consistency weight problem should understand.
Second, first thought (can be seen on first page of this topic) was to add 2 pulling animals. We also reconsider this, but FG was clear, that isn't possible with current model. There exists only animation for one pulling animal.
Then, in game already exists a lot of similar consistency problematic units.
I understand that isn't reason to add more, but current battlewagon unit is also one of them, simply current wagon in consistency terms was probably to heavy to be bulled by one ram, and nobody probably ever saw that as problem. And suddenly now when we have suggested new skin, this is problem. Also not to mention (almost whole in iron) iron Isenguard's balista pushed by 2 childish uruks etc.
To underline this, I am also aware about those consistency problems, but simply in my opinion they are not so important when we take into consideration situation with other machines in game or mod.
Concerning name for ability of Erebor, am I completely to leave that for team at the end. Simply I wanted to collect as more as we could of suggestions of ability effects and suggested names and to leave that to ET. They will  probably (if they desided to implement this in first place) give their personal touch and remake good part of this suggestion. I presume that.
As one of supporters of this idea Aklas, have said, that "Flash" part idicates to stun effect, and I really agree with him, if ability remain with stun effect, then we should keep that stun in name etc
Barrel (as Odysseus suggested above ) in name for some knock back and damage on buildings or vanila Oil cask as simple one on which we are already used to... Simply I would leave this to the team.

Concerning that last update, I am like the most of you, very excited, and I agree, we should wait for rest of dwarven news, and then to try to polish suggestion. But I think that 90% from our side (our ability to suggest/help etc) is probably over, and all those adjustments should be done by team. ET will know how to implement this suggestiong in correlation with latest dwarven changes.

Best regards Fred!

Crag

^ +1 to everything said.