[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Dwarven Suggestions
Battlewagons Improvements
CragLord:
Yes, I hope that results will be similar on German side also. :)
As I have said this is officially "second" final version, so now we can start thinking about third one. :)
Now, guys I had couple of games today with Erebor mainly, and I have tried to test as much as possible current battle wagons.
Results are pretty same, instant pike trample destruction (which should be in my opinion), and pretty overpowered damage from standard swordsmen attack, and I hope this will be changed in near future. But mostly what I wanted to test was Oil casks, as much as possible.
Currently in game, Oil casks do area damage against enemy units and do 0 damage to structures.
Now, to take a look at our suggested abilities and their comparison.
I find crossbow ability and shield ability pretty decent ones and equal in their comparison. But this Flash bombs are a bit undefined still and I think weaker then those two (this is also I think good time to ask some balance testers about comparison). What I want to say, our current suggestions about this improvement ability is to replace damage ability on units with stun effect and to add damage on buildings. Which in general won't be so useful as shield activation ability after which we can use "comfortably" (in some level ofc) wagons to destroy pike formation and trample them for some time, or crossbow ability which will do some decent damage to enemies (we also haven't define some things about this, so I will also try to define them later with your help :) ), so flash bombs are bit underpowered. We can't damage enemy units (instead we stun them in area and hope that after that we could preform some effective trample, which ofc isn't certain thing like bonuses we get from crossbow (in term of damage) and from shields (in term of defence)) and we suggested damage on buildings which I find really suitable in term of Erebor faction (after all current Oil casks (or flash bombs as their improved version) are flammable liquids and they should damage buildings in first place in my opinion).
So what I find a bit out of place is that we replace certain current damage on units with stun effect which doesn't "claim" us certain damage or successful possibility to damage after it with chariots in trample (what I want to say is that experienced players always use pikes in combination with other units, pikes always protect them, so we will be able in that situation to stun those enemy units in area but they will stay protected by pikes and our instant trample idea is wasted in some way... I have also reconsidered situation, we stun enemy units and then with our range units we do damage, but then we can't use trample again on them (because of pikes) and enemy units will also probably have backup by their range units etc, so in general we couldn't use trample in decent way).
So I have thought a lot about these things and I think we should also reconsider next proposals:
* To add building damage to current Oil cask and improve it's current damage on units (I have played against Mordor AI in one game and 1 barrel was enough to kill those basics orcs (of free cost), but later when I played against Gondors AI, I needed more then 3 barrels to did decent damage on Gontor units), current one is a bit low.
In my experience from some of games I played today. Simply we need more then 3 wagons or more then 3 barrels to make decent damage.
So maybe we should keep name of this Oil Cask, and buff it with more damage on units and add siege damage for buildings (and/or to change name to Flash bombs, Flash Flame etc, it is irrelevant right now, need to discuss about effects...).
* Also what we can suggest, which is I think reasonable, is to buff damage on units and add some slow effect on them instead stun effect, and too add damage on buildings also.
Those were my thoughts, so 2 more ideas beside current one to reconsider about.
*
--- Zitat von: Aklas am 4. Dez 2015, 13:07 ---Concerning the "Flash-Bomb": I had an idea,were the Barrel explodes in a huge explosion, dealing strong damage to Buildings and knocking enemy units back (with dealing less damage).
--- Ende Zitat ---
So to sum, same damage as current Oil cask to units with effect of knock-back + stronger damage to buildings. Also if possible when dealing damage to buildings to have knock back effect on nearby enemy units.
Now few things about crossbow which we haven't determined yet.
We have suggested that crossbow will be activation ability which will be active for 10-15 sec and then will cool down until it will be again ready for use. So we haven't be precised.
I also got some thoughts about this, so I tried to describe usage in a bit more detailed way.
* We can suggest this ability as selective activation one, this will meant that after we use it, we need to point with proper cursor from gameplay ( like this one: , SCCAttMagic cursor) on single target. After we select that single target crossbow shoots some determined number of shoots on that target if target is in range (range and damage of shoots like number of shoots are balance things and we should leave that aside and to team, we should only discuss about idea in general, please keep that in mind.)
So in this way, crossbow will be good against single targets like monsters etc (in order not to make overpowered suggestion I suggest that ability shouldn't be able to use on heroes (if we try in game should pop up SCCNoAction cursor: ) )
Also what occurs to my mind, is possible if we for example select in this way soldier from battalion, that after crossbow shoots kill selected one, continue to shoot on units from same battalion. So, we could simply use this as activation ability with selective target in good good against single target or whole battalions (but only one battalion, basically as we selected only one battalion).
* Second thought is to just activate ability and crossbow will automatically shoot on the nearest enemy, and ability will last for some determined duration. Of course there will be determined range of this crossbow etc.
* And third suggestion is to have area effect (similar to Legolas's Rain of Arrows), there will be determined damage of shoots and number of them (or duration in general) and it will shoot bolts in area on any unit, one shoot by one (not more arrows (bolts) in same time as Legolas). :)
So, guys, what do you think about this? :)
Be free to share any thoughts and suggestions!
Best Regards,
CragLord
Elite KryPtik:
So, before posting my thoughts I just want to note that my initial idea for Flash Flame was just basically a reskin of the Oil Casks to match the film, you guys are the ones who came up with making it anti building. Anyways on to my thoughts.
If we look at the Erebor sub-faction as a whole, they are simply not effective on the field of battle. Most of their formations and special abilities revolve around damaging buildings or defending better in castles. Simply put, Erebor is not ever picked by skilled players online, the vast majority go with Iron Hills for the speed and aggression, and Ered Luin follows at a close second. Erebor are only really effective when defending or assaulting fortresses (Helms Deep, etc.). Therefore, I see no reason why we should change this for their war chariots. The rest of the faction isn't so great on the field of battle, so why mshould the chariots have an exception? I personally am quite fine with the ability as it has been presented, it synergizes with the rest of the faction very well.
In terms of the crossbow, I think it should be the same as Legolas' Arrow Wind, you target a specific area with your cursor, and the crossbow fires a set number of bolts at all units in that area for a set time, even if they leave the area of the cursor. This makes the most sense to me in terms of making it function in game.
Odysseus:
+1 to Elite's suggestion.
CragLord:
--- Zitat von: Elite KryPtik am 3. Dez 2015, 00:25 ---So, before posting my thoughts I just want to note that my initial idea for Flash Flame was just basically a reskin of the Oil Casks to match the film, you guys are the ones who came up with making it anti building. Anyways on to my thoughts.
If we look at the Erebor sub-faction as a whole, they are simply not effective on the field of battle. Most of their formations and special abilities revolve around damaging buildings or defending better in castles. Simply put, Erebor is not ever picked by skilled players online, the vast majority go with Iron Hills for the speed and aggression, and Ered Luin follows at a close second. Erebor are only really effective when defending or assaulting fortresses (Helms Deep, etc.). Therefore, I see no reason why we should change this for their war chariots. The rest of the faction isn't so great on the field of battle, so why should the chariots have an exception? I personally am quite fine with the ability as it has been presented, it synergizes with the rest of the faction very well.
In terms of the crossbow, I think it should be the same as Legolas' Arrow Wind, you target a specific area with your cursor, and the crossbow fires a set number of bolts at all units in that area for a set time, even if they leave the area of the cursor. This makes the most sense to me in terms of making it function in game.
--- Ende Zitat ---
Thanks guys for feedback, I hope we will get some more thought from others about those suggestions.
Ok Elite, I am just trying to take into consideration some facts, nothing direct to you or to ability's name you have suggested. ;)
As you have said we have suggested that siege damage not you, and I really don't have problem with that. From "consistency" view, those bombs or casks or barrels should be filled with flammable liquids or flammable matter so it is real to expect some siege damage from this ability on buildings. I don't say that is necessary for Erebor in term of balance (they already have enough siege damage), but from consistency view I have and general siege "look" of faction I find that justified. What I found a bit "risky move" is damage we have eliminated on units. I just have similar look as you, but maybe lesser balance or PvP experience. Simply I agree that Erebor is specific dwarven faction as you have described it. And that isn't great in field of battle. Because of facts that you with units can't do (damage for example) as your current enemy (for example some more offensive faction), I find current damage area effect of Oil cask as supportive ability.
Simple situation is that you have 2 battle wagons (one upgraded with heal second with banners) on back of your army, doing supporting role. When your enemy and your infantry start fighting, you cast 2 Oil casks and do some area damage on enemy's infantry units, so basically, you have helped you infantry, make their job easier (and if we even increase it a bit more, it would do decent job). Of course that is current situation with wagons, we mainly use them on back as supportive units in general, not concerning only Erebor (I hope with this proposal that will be changed). But simply is worthy to lose such damage in game for faction which isn't great on field of battle as you have said? That was my point of view, and because of it, I have suggested those 2 proposals in my previous comment.
Now what also I want to ask you is what will be usage of stun effect, and how it will be in synergy with Erebor? As defensive mechanism I presume.
I really don't have problem with current name or current effect we have suggested, as I have said from our side this is finished proposal, and team can take it and reshape it, in any term. Just before that happened I wanted we take some more facts into consideration. :)
Now concerning Crossbow suggestions from my previous comment, I just hope that mechanism doesn't require standing in one place as Legolas does when he "channeling" this ability.
Greetings,
Crag
Aklas:
Hi there,
First: I totally support the idea of changing the War Chariots of the Dwarves.
Concerning the "Flash-Bomb": I had an idea,were the Barrel explodes in a huge explosion, dealing strong damage to Buildings and knocking enemy units back (with dealing less damage), similar to the earthquake-ability of the "Dwarven-Create-A-Hero" with a range like Gimlis Jump. I think this would be a great addition to the Erebor and supports the idea of Anti-Building-Faction. I also think the name "Flash-Bomb" doesent fit really, cause a "Flash-Bomb" only stuns units (because its VERY bright) and dealing absolutly no damage against buildings.
I think the idea of "Arrow Wind" for the Crossbow is realy great (already postet this idea in the German Forum on wednessday ^^). If the War Chariot can't move while channeling, my second idea was an Ability like the "Arrow rain" from the Spell Book of Gondor (Also Spell Book Ability of Mordor, i think) but not that huge and strong.
Greetings
Aklas
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