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Umfrage

Should the Battlewagons become War Chariots and recive a Re-Skin with Unique Active Abilities!? :)

Yes,they should!
No,the shouldn't!

Autor Thema: Battlewagons Improvements  (Gelesen 52827 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #45 am: 6. Nov 2015, 23:00 »
Well I'm coming a little late to this topic, but since I had time I read every post. Here are my thoughts

In terms of the animals pulling the chariots, I would agree it should only be Rams. The strength argument is completely irrelevant, this is Dwarven craftsmanship we are talking about here. The machines wheels would be extremely well balanced and oiled, it could probably be pulled by a child. The only reason to add additional animals is to increase the speed that the chariot can move, take the incredible speed it moves in the film as an example.

The Dwarves would only really have access to Mountain Goats/Rams and Boars as tamable beasts of burden, due to where their strongholds are located, and the boars would not be suitable for pulling a large war machine. They could probably work well enough as heavy war mounts for individual dwarves, just like in history they had lighter, faster horses for just charging and catching routing forces, and heavy war horses who were better for prolonged melee combat. So I would support the Boars being added as a form of cavalry who don't have a great charge, but are quite strong in prolonged melee.

I would agree that the upgrades should remain the same, and have the oil cask ability change for each faction. The Crossbow effect length and CD should represent the firing rate and reload time, so in my view it should be something like fires 10 bolts, has a 10 second reload. However, I do not agree with giving the wheel spikes to Ered Luin exclusively, if anything I would say it should be passively available for all 3 factions, or if it has to be exclusive it should be for Iron Hills, that's where the entire chariot comes from. I would rather see some kind of a unique ability related to armor for Ered Luin, maybe something like a couple dwarves wielding huge greatshields on each side, and something to be useful in a siege situation for Erebor, like some kind of a bomb or "flash flame" ability. After all, its Balin who makes the flash flame grenades in the movies, and he lives in Erebor till he stupidly tries to retake Moria. That is the roles of the 3 different sub-factions, IH is more damage less armor, EL is more armor less damage, and finally Erebor is really strong in siege situations, but not as good in the open field.

I think this thread has merit, and is worthy of a poll at this point, to determine whether or not people want the different war chariots for each faction. I wouldn't include all the different ideas for upgrades and abilities in the poll, just a simple yes or no regarding changing the battlewagons to a unique war chariot for each faction. Great topic :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #46 am: 6. Nov 2015, 23:34 »
Late or not your opinion is most welcome as alwasy Elite mate! :) I am gald you took interest in this Thread! :)

Abslutely agree ,Different Kind of Goats/Rams are the best and as you say 1 Animal is just fine no need to make things harder for just 1 more Animal which as you said wil lbe neede may be for speed only! :)

I avtually had an idea about Lord Dain's LV 10 Summon to be 2 Battalions of Boar Riders but I doubt it on 100% that the Team or the fasn will support it! :( Thats why I think it will be the best solution to have Boar Pulling the War Chariot summoned by King Dain in Erebor,which shouls be IHs Chariot with Crossbow but Pulled by an Armored Boar to rerpesnt his connection with IHs! :)

Yup the Upgrades should be the same to save more hard and not so needed work for the Team! :) But I think one Viual Change for the Healing Upgrade will be nice,you see I do not see it so logical to have Fire/Fire Place on a Chariot to Heal ,thats why I suggested to get 1 Barrel with Cups Attached to it on the one side of the Chariot and on the other side Packeges with Food,the Ugprade can be Named "Provisions" ,basically Food and Drink for long Marches of the Army away from Home to replenish their Strenght and Health,what yo uthink about that?! :)

As I have already stated before I agree that the Wheel Blades should be for al l3 Factions from the Begining or only for IHs as more of DMG Weapon they are and IHs being DMG Faction! :)

Well I think that Ered Luin can indeed get those Big Shield Soldiers which will give the Chariot some strong Buff against Pikes for short time they wil lbe really hard to kill from Spearmans which are the biggest Weakness of the Chariots and  the ability will present wel lthe Armor NAture of Ered Luin! :)

For Erebor you basically suggest a bigger and stronger Version of the Oil Cask,well I am fine with that! :)

About IHs Crossbow I agree but may be we can have 10 sec Shoiting with 15-20 sec reload Time!? :) I think this wil lbe pefrfect!? :)

I indeed will create a Poll right now considering how many people were interested in the idea and most of all supported it! :)

Greeetings and thank you for the feedback! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #47 am: 6. Nov 2015, 23:38 »
I mean, this is totally OT and if anyone wants to continue talking about this matter, I'll address in a moment, I'm fine, but please via PM. However...
Zitat
The strength argument is completely irrelevant, this is Dwarven craftsmanship we are talking about here. The machines wheels would be extremely well balanced and oiled, it could probably be pulled by a child. The only reason to add additional animals is to increase the speed that the chariot can move, take the incredible speed it moves in the film as an example.
What? :D You seem to life in a universe where both friction and Newton's third axiom don't apply. Apart from the fact that I simply doubt the fact that any craftsman (and I don't care if they are dwarves or not, they are still material beings -also dwarves are, as skilled as they are, still in pre-industrial age and even nowadays we can't built a frictionless vehicle. That's just beyond anyone in Medieval to craft such a thing. ;)
Second of all: There is this little axiom, that a force evokes a force of equal strength in opposite direction. Even if a child could pull this chariot (which is absolutely impossible by any logical means) it would still be impossible to crush inside an entire enemy army and just overrun numerous enemies without loosing most of your momentum. (And this point has actually nothing to do with dwarven craftsmanship, so this doesn't even hold up, you simple need a lot of momentum and therefore strong pulling animals to crush enemies with this and mountains goats are actually not that heavy if I am not mistaken.) xD

I'm really sorry for this complete OT, but you can't seriously expect me to just listen when my doubts are addressed like this, can you? ;) Which shouldn't sound offending, to be perfectly clear!

Zitat
and something to be useful in a siege situation for Erebor, like some kind of a bomb or "flash flame" ability
How about the Oil cask? Apart from that, Erebor has actually lost its building destroyer focus (which is probably the best idea ever included for the dwarves, because now the sub-factions are at least sort of balanced out). If it should be strong against buildings, then against ressource buildings, so Erebor would get a unique harass unit. As a static siege weapon the chariot does serve no purpose, eventhough I expect you didn't mean this. ;)


Zitat
Thats why I think it will be the best solution to have Boar Pulling the War Chariot summoned by King Dain in Erebor
I guess a wild boar is a great animal for the chariot, but there is actually another relation between Erebor and IH via the boar, namely Dain's mount.
BTW, I like the idea of beer barrels as a new healing upgrade. This was everytimes really unique for dwarves that their healing fortress upgrade was no fountain of some sort but this number of supplies including food and drinks.

Zitat
Well I think that Ered Luin can indeed get those Big Shield Soldiers which will give the Chariot some strong Buff against Pikes for short time they wil lbe really hard to kill from Spearmans which are the biggest Weakness of the Chariots and  the ability will present wel lthe Armor NAture of Ered Luin! :)
I guess inside the game this might work, but would this really support the chariot? I just saying: If it runs head on into enemy pikes, the goat / boar would just get impaled, therefore shields at the side wouldn't really matter. Perhaps it might be a bit more logic if this ability would cause the rams to lower their heads and directly headbutt the enemy. This would be a) extremly funny to watch (xD) and b) a bit more logic, because the goats are wearing a helmet, aren't they? (If they don't: Just add them! :))


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Nov 2015, 23:46 von Melkor Bauglir »

CragLord

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #48 am: 6. Nov 2015, 23:48 »
There is no "late" reply on this forum. xD

I completely agree with you, as I have posted in some of previous comments, only Rams (and boars) as pulling animals.
Yes, that strength argument is pretty irrelevant here, because we are speaking about model diversity improvement (so far rams have done this job and this wasn't obstacle).

For now we will have rams cavalry as part of Iron Hills faction, and in my opinion I would stay on that when we speak about "dwarven" cavalry. Yes, wild boars looks strong and might with lack of charge ability, but I am against adding them as cavalry units. It is too much for dwarves I think. Basic idea of adding boars was as pulling animals for Iron Hills (at start) but the "most unique" way is to integrate them in King Dain's chariot summon power because of lore facts. :)

Concerning chariots upgrades, you gave me nice idea. I agree, all current upgrades (in property terms) should stay, adding those passive spike ability is nice suggestion and if all chariots will have it from then.
And concerning Ered Luin chariots active ability, we could as Dain have suggested add some active armor buff ability, when we for 10 or 15 sec (balance of this duration is irrelevant now, balance will be discussed after idea is accepted, if it would be accepted ofc) Ered Luin chariots gain armor against pikes and during that time 2 dwarven buddies are holding those shields by every side of chariot as you have suggested. It sound nice now.

Concerning Erebor, Oil Cask or some other bomb devise with same effect it is pretty same with me. Just that ability have siege properties.

Iron Hills upgrade, also crossbow is nice, and concerning bolts numbers or ability duration it is matter of balance and I would take that for later (if idea is gonna be accepted :) )

About poll, I leave it to Dain.

P.S. Melkor, concerning goat strength it is pretty irrelevant thing (with no offence) because concept worked fine until now and you present this as problem with different goat models? Or I have misunderstand you. Main idea here is model change not discussion about goat properties/abilities in real life. Please try to think about it in that way.

Kind regards

« Letzte Änderung: 6. Nov 2015, 23:55 von CragLord »

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #49 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:00 »
I too find the Strentght argument not so needed in this situation! :) We talk as Crag said about diveristy and better models thats all in a game! :)

Now I created a Poll and will kindly ask all those who have't taken part in the Discussion so far to take a look at it by reading it! :) No,offense to anyone but I hope people who vote will be familiar with what idea is about and all its positive things and the way it will enrich the Game! :)

So with all my respoect I politely ask all the Companions of Edain who will Vote to Read the Thread! :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #50 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:03 »
Zitat
P.S. Melkor, concerning goat strength it is pretty irrelevant thing (with no offence) because concept worked fine until now and you present this as problem with different goat models? Or I have misunderstand you. Main idea here is model change not discussion about goat properties/abilities in real life. Please try to think about it in that way.
I know, I know. ;) I did not intend to start a discussion about the biology of the mountain goat or something like that, it was just a point, Elite KryPtik brought up, I just couldn't let pass, without at least addressing it, because of some serious errors. xD I didn't wish to sound like I changed my mind about some visual diversification, I still strongly support most of your ideas!

Zitat
Just that ability have siege properties.
What exactly do you mean with "siege properties"? Strong against buildings in general or a replacement / additional option in Erebor's siege department? Because I think Erebor doesn't really need to second option (additional siege), but I could very well see the idea behind an anti-ressource building weapon. It could add extremely much too the faction (in a wider gameplay sense) to give Erebor the option to use its chariots as a harassment tool (while they already have a lot against fortified positions).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #51 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:08 »
No problem Melkor my friend! :) It was fine expressing your opinion on that mater you said it is OT and said about PM discussing it ,so nothing wrong is done! :) I too some times can't let things pass and jsut have to adress them  [ugly]

Now about the Oil Cask,I think Elite meaint something like Oil Cask but stronger and better against Buildings!? I think at least that is it! :D
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #52 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:11 »
I'm not going to get into an intense discussion about the laws of physics. Notice I said a child COULD pull the chariot, not that they could pull the chariot effectively or rapidly. A 4 legged mountain goat could very easily pull the chariot, because they have a low center of gravity which gives them much more pulling and pushing force then a human could get on the same level. The best example I can give is the gate of Minas Tirith, which because of fine-tuned balance and well oiled gears, can be opened by only 2 men. The same concept applies to the wheels of a chariot, it makes the chariot extremely easy to move forward and backward on a level plain. Now this of course doesn't include turning and going up/downhill, but its pointless to argue things on a case-by-case basis. In the end, the chariot could still be pulled by a single ram, very easily. :)

In regards to changing the healing upgrade to some supplies, like beer barrels and food, I would definitely agree. It makes no sense to me to have a hearth on a moving war chariot, all that would do is add the hazard of falling into the fire for the people aboard the chariot xD To take it a step further, maybe there could be some visual medical supplies as well, IE some bandages and potions.

As for the Erebor Explosive/Flash Flame ability, I did indeed mean something that can be used to deal good damage to buildings, though not necessarily to gates or walls. In the code, the special damage applied to buildings is literally called "siege" damage, which is why I said siege.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #53 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:19 »
I love lively discussion guys!You made me very happy today with showing interest in my humble idea! I am honored by al lfo you really! :)

Now Elite I too thought about Adding some Medical Supplies too but jsut didn't know how to show them in the Game,I mean a Red Cross will not do for obvious reasons  [uglybunti] [uglybunti]

But indeed it will be a nice touch to add them,the upgrade will be caleld "Provisions' or "Long Road Supplies" what you guys thing!? Same effect,just different visual and name!? :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

CragLord

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #54 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:20 »
:) I am glad you support us with this. :)
I agree completely with you, any science proofs and similar stuff you can discuss via PM. :)
I just meant, Oil cask or maybe that movie Balin's bomb with area damage property.
Maybe in sake of this discussion we could suggest that this ability have explicit damage to buildings? xD But I am more for not changing current oil cask in case of erebor faction.
Thats all from me.

Kind regards
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Nov 2015, 00:49 von CragLord »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #55 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:24 »
I think that since the Demolisher and Catapult both already get the Oil Cask ability, it makes sense to replace it with something more suitable on the battlewagons. Balins bombs in the movie are called "Flash Flame" you can hear Thorin ask Balin if he can still make them.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

CragLord

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #56 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:27 »
Ok, I understand you.
But what property this ability will have? What are suggestions?
Maybe to do some fire damage during time on building, explicit siege damage?

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #57 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:36 »
I would say just high damage to buildings, while dealing less damage to units. Since they are kind of like early flash bang grenades the way they are presented in the film, it could have a unit stun property?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #58 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:38 »
I must say it sounds nice!! To ahve some DMG against Buildings and just Stun for short time Units like Flash Granade! :)

I like this idea it sounds interesting and quite unique! :)

I absolutely 100% agree with this idea! :)
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Nov 2015, 00:53 von LordDainIronfoot »
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

CragLord

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Re: Battlewagons improvments or not!?
« Antwort #59 am: 7. Nov 2015, 00:42 »
Yes, pretty nice suggestion in my opinion, pretty unique so far. Nice siege property and movie presentation "combo".
I think with that properties it could replace that oil cask successfully.
As you said, catapult will still have oil cask so we are not removing it from faction with this suggestion.
I agree about this, lets hear others about this proposal. :)