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Autor Thema: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions  (Gelesen 110651 mal)

Gandalf7000

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #150 am: 5. Feb 2017, 15:43 »
My heart bleeds, but I nonetheless agree  :D

Given that we're in front of a supposedly royal guard, I couldn't see any defect, were they to acquire a, let's say, higher status (a similar case compared to the Guardians of Caras Galadhon). Under this perspective, Palace Guards might be given an additional unique feature, beside the already-existent one.

But I would like to address another point, even if it's just a very vague hint: if Palace Guards are to be limited, wouldn't this be a proper occasion to give Mirkwood the possibility to recruit a lesser version of them? Namely, the common (regular) lancers we see in BOTFA. Yes, in doing so, Lothlórien would dispose of three lancer-type units (of which one is heroic), but the favourable argument could rely on the fact that Lórien and Mirkwood do have separate roles in the game, and they represent two different realms. This choice would grant the Woodland Realm a bit more importance and uniqueness, along with sticking more loyally to the cinematographic atmosphere. Also, we could regard this addition as a possible means via which we might placate the hunger of some users to have Mirkwood as an independent faction (given that the main reason frequently consists of them desiring the subfaction to be more prominent). What do you think?

Obviously, the latter argument is not really the best approach to develop this proposal, nor would I ever alter my convictions due to those poor grievances (an independent Mirkwood). Just see it as a general topic: making Mirkwood more relevant (if it really deserves such treatment).
Yes I agree. Actually I thought of suggesting Mirkwood pikemen to be recruitable but since the Team repeatedly rejected this idea i didn't suggest that.

Julio229

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #151 am: 5. Feb 2017, 16:03 »
My heart bleeds, but I nonetheless agree  :D

Given that we're in front of a supposedly royal guard, I couldn't see any defect, were they to acquire a, let's say, higher status (a similar case compared to the Guardians of Caras Galadhon). Under this perspective, Palace Guards might be given an additional unique feature, beside the already-existent one.

But I would like to address another point, even if it's just a very vague hint: if Palace Guards are to be limited, wouldn't this be a proper occasion to give Mirkwood the possibility to recruit a lesser version of them? Namely, the common (regular) lancers we see in BOTFA. Yes, in doing so, Lothlórien would dispose of three lancer-type units (of which one is heroic), but the favourable argument could rely on the fact that Lórien and Mirkwood do have separate roles in the game, and they represent two different realms. This choice would grant the Woodland Realm a bit more importance and uniqueness, along with sticking more loyally to the cinematographic atmosphere. Also, we could regard this addition as a possible means via which we might placate the hunger of some users to have Mirkwood as an independent faction (given that the main reason frequently consists of them desiring the subfaction to be more prominent). What do you think?

Obviously, the latter argument is not really the best approach to develop this proposal, nor would I ever alter my convictions due to those poor grievances (an independent Mirkwood). Just see it as a general topic: making Mirkwood more relevant (if it really deserves such treatment).

I support this idea, if the Palace Guards are made Heroic units!


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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #152 am: 5. Feb 2017, 16:07 »
Yes I agree. Actually I thought of suggesting Mirkwood pikemen to be recruitable but since the Team repeatedly rejected this idea i didn't suggest that.

I remember that kind of proposals. Their refusal was probably justified by the fact that Palace Guards are already supposed to serve as regular lancers in the game. Yet, if they are to become heroic units, that changes quite a lot in terms of gameplay. Adding to my previous suggestion, in order to have real heroic troops, what if Palace Guards were able to toggle between spears and swords? Only in this way could they function as versatile royal guards, as it's shown in DOS.


Gandalf7000

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #153 am: 5. Feb 2017, 17:35 »

what if Palace Guards were able to toggle between spears and swords? Only in this way could they function as versatile royal guards, as it's shown in DOS.

Oh, that would be good.

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #154 am: 7. Feb 2017, 17:33 »
Just to add to the flow of the discussion: even if Palace Guards are to hypothetically acquire the status of a heroic unit, the implementation of the regular lancers from BOTFA would probably give the faction too many means to counter cavalry, and that's something we ought to avoid.

Therefore, another alternative I personally envisaged could be the very removal of Lórien pikemen, the inclusion of Mirkwood lancers as the regular anti-cavalry unit of the faction and the considerable broadening of Palace Guards' role as iconic royal guards. Referring to the latter case, the new royal guard could consist of 5/10 units per battalion (with the maximum of three battalions permitted) and shall be given the possibility to toggle weapons; not only would they thus be made more relevant in the game (more unique), but their overall activity would have much wider spaces of action at hand. About the removal of Lórien pikemen, this is certainly a quite radical of a proposal, but there are some positive arguments which we may bring at the common attention.

First of all, I have no knowledge whether the lore gives clear information about this, I have personally never viewed those pikemen as something so much proper for Lothlórien (the specific faction); I feel their addition was more an obligated choice for balance-related reasons. In my own opinion, the legitimate core of Lothlórien's infantry/archery are the regular border guards from BFME2 and the versatile Galadhrim; that's the main conceptual focus. Following the above-mentioned suggestions, Mirkwood only will then have the hegemony of anti-cavalry countering, ending up being much more differentiated and with a broader role as a subfaction. Obviously, Lórien would consequently be subjected to many threats by riders in the early stage, yet that might be seen as a possible strategic risk in equal terms.

As an additional defence at the beginning of the game, we could consider the early-defence role that Woodsmen are endowed with according to Fredius' proposal. However, I'm perfectly conscious that all these ideas I hitherto addressed rely on very what-if premises and, most importantly, on a concept about which the Edain Team has not expressed itself yet. But I nonetheless wanted to create a common ground for a possible significant overhaul, and I hope we shall head thither.

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #155 am: 7. Feb 2017, 17:51 »
I agree with making the Palace Guards into heroic units, although I would advise that their max numbers be pushed to 4-5 battalions max. However, I'm against the implementation of the standard spearmen.

If the Lorien Pikemen were to be removed this would leave Lorien wide open to cavalry, any faction would know to head straight for cavalry since it can be used to devastating effect on a faction that doesn't have access to pikes. The normal counter would be to move the mirkwood spearmen to the Castle/Camp citadel but that would break the nice harmony that Lorien has going. If I'm not mistaken, Lorien is meant to be weak to cavalry, so limiting the Palace Guards is logical, however allowing armored units to be recruited from the Lorien base would counter that weakness. And if the Spearman are to be implemented as an additional unit in the Mirkwood oupost they would just become superfloues since one or two battalions of Palace Guards are all that is need to scare your enemy out of the idea of getting cavalry. Just some of my thoughts.
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Gandalf7000

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #156 am: 7. Feb 2017, 18:20 »
Just to add to the flow of the discussion: even if Palace Guards are to hypothetically acquire the status of a heroic unit, the implementation of the regular lancers from BOTFA would probably give the faction too many means to counter cavalry, and that's something we ought to avoid.

Therefore, another alternative I personally envisaged could be the very removal of Lórien pikemen, the inclusion of Mirkwood lancers as the regular anti-cavalry unit of the faction and the considerable broadening of Palace Guards' role as iconic royal guards. Referring to the latter case, the new royal guard could consist of 5/10 units per battalion (with the maximum of three battalions permitted) and shall be given the possibility to toggle weapons; not only would they thus be made more relevant in the game (more unique), but their overall activity would have much wider spaces of action at hand. About the removal of Lórien pikemen, this is certainly a quite radical of a proposal, but there are some positive arguments which we may bring at the common attention.

First of all, I have no knowledge whether the lore gives clear information about this, I have personally never viewed those pikemen as something so much proper for Lothlórien (the specific faction); I feel their addition was more an obligated choice for balance-related reasons. In my own opinion, the legitimate core of Lothlórien's infantry/archery are the regular border guards from BFME2 and the versatile Galadhrim; that's the main conceptual focus. Following the above-mentioned suggestions, Mirkwood only will then have the hegemony of anti-cavalry countering, ending up being much more differentiated and with a broader role as a subfaction. Obviously, Lórien would consequently be subjected to many threats by riders in the early stage, yet that might be seen as a possible strategic risk in equal terms.

As an additional defence at the beginning of the game, we could consider the early-defence role that Woodsmen are endowed with according to Fredius' proposal. However, I'm perfectly conscious that all these ideas I hitherto addressed rely on very what-if premises and, most importantly, on a concept about which the Edain Team has not expressed itself yet. But I nonetheless wanted to create a common ground for a possible significant overhaul, and I hope we shall head thither.
That's also a possibility. So if the Lorien Pikemen are removed the player would need to have Mirkwood Outpost to better counter enemy cavalry - this also adds something to the strategy of how you play. I think that early cavalry rush wouldn't be much of a problem as Lorien citadel has guard archers that deal with most enemies coming in the castle.

kmogon

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #157 am: 7. Feb 2017, 19:50 »
I agree with making the Palace Guards into heroic units, although I would advise that their max numbers be pushed to 4-5 battalions max. However, I'm against the implementation of the standard spearmen.

If the Lorien Pikemen were to be removed this would leave Lorien wide open to cavalry, any faction would know to head straight for cavalry since it can be used to devastating effect on a faction that doesn't have access to pikes. The normal counter would be to move the mirkwood spearmen to the Castle/Camp citadel but that would break the nice harmony that Lorien has going. If I'm not mistaken, Lorien is meant to be weak to cavalry, so limiting the Palace Guards is logical, however allowing armored units to be recruited from the Lorien base would counter that weakness. And if the Spearman are to be implemented as an additional unit in the Mirkwood oupost they would just become superfloues since one or two battalions of Palace Guards are all that is need to scare your enemy out of the idea of getting cavalry. Just some of my thoughts.

If we include suggestion about implementing woodmen pikes to beorings' homestead it would perfecly highlight lothrien weakness against cavalry - pikes would be harder to get than in other factions but not as hard as getting them only in outpost. Yes , this is very radically change but it probably help lothrien in balance meanings ( correctly: remove lothrien pikes , add woodmen warriors , add mirkwood pikes and change palace guard to heroic units ). I'm for this idea

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #158 am: 7. Feb 2017, 23:35 »
Thank you all for the precious contributions. The simply replacement of Lórien pikemen and the transferring of the Mirkwood lancers to the main fortress are obviously not the goal of the proposal, as that would take us again to the starting point of the issue. Yes, the proposal should instead be considered in conjunction with Fredius' concept and with some other aspects we do have knowledge of  ;)

As others have already pointed out fairly, with the departure of Lórien pikemen (whom I personally find not so much conceptually fitting), Woodsmen and Beornings are to constitute the early defence at the beginning of the game; I don't think it's imperative that Woodsmen be necessarily pikemen, but I'm leaning more and more towards this perspective. They would obviously represent a lesser chance to counter immediate threats from cavalry. Also, what Fredius proposed entails the fact that Beornings will acquire a more prominent status, in line with their supernatural nature and thus granting players an additional possibility to defend themselves. Moreover, we ought to remember that Grimbeorn shall maybe receive the Axe of Doriath from Galadriel, strengthening his attack and the surrounding Skin-changers. Therefore, the whole Beorning Homestead is to be given a much more central role.

As additional remarks, we shouldn't also forget the support provided by minstrels, which defends from trampling too, and the sentinels of the camp/castle. Nor should we leave aside the prospect of Galadriel being capable of using the abilities of Ancient Might, which involve primarily monsters and heroes. On a final note, some of the arguments are based on pure assumptions, but these seem in my eyes to be favourable scopes for an equal redistribution of power in the overall faction, without disrupting Lothlórien's hegemonic status. The three main components of the faction will benefit from a higher degree of proper differentiation: Lothlórien (archery and versatile infantry), Mirkwood (heavier infantry and pikemen) and the People of the woods (early defence and Beornings). Like I already stated, only three battalions of Palace Guards shall be available (to avoid superfluous anti-cavalry proliferation) and have their role loosened, in the sense that they won't solely focus on cavalry anymore.

kmogon

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #159 am: 8. Feb 2017, 00:21 »
Och, it's beautifull how from simple "hey why palace guards can't be heroic units" can bring very interesting idea which can provide more balance to this unique faction. Of course there probably appear some people which disagree - especially those who don't like concept of increasing  humans' role  in this faction. But for me it's very promissing idea. Die Wülkirie, the only thing is to mix all of it ( including Fredius woodsmen ) and make pool for voting - the only problem that I see is that some of supporters of introducing woodsmen can be opposite to the rest of idea. Nethertheless   I'm for it ;)

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #160 am: 8. Feb 2017, 17:56 »
Och, it's beautifull how from simple "hey why palace guards can't be heroic units" can bring very interesting idea which can provide more balance to this unique faction.

The joy of forum activity and ever-changing debates  :P

I don't think it would be useful to open a poll. I would rather opt for establishing an own new thread, putting the topic forward and submitting it to everyone's judgement. I shall obviously connect the arguments and the general reasoning with the major concepts I referred to above. If you support the proposal, just forward your thoughts via a comment. Needless to say, feel free to propose other alternatives or to continue the discussion there.

Just to clarify, I'm not trying to avoid polls, but the matters involved are quite specific in themselves and the options of the survey I should present might be several: removing Lórien pikemen, the new overall role of the Beorning Homestead, the implementation of Mirkwood's common lancers, Palace Guards as limited and versatile heroic units and the other combinations. Too many choices would result in a very dispersive of an outcome. I thus don't find the prospect of a poll very apt in this situation.

Garlodur

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #161 am: 11. Feb 2017, 13:19 »
I will share my secondary thoughts on Fredius's Woodmen proposal here:


With the suggestion of turning Mirkwood Palace Guards into heroic units, I started thinking about the possible implications on the Lothlórien faction. I realised that without affecting the core of the faction too much, leaving it very much as it's current concept, the amount of units the faction can dispose of does not have to change. Let me explain.

Step 1) The Lórien Pikemen are removed. They are not useful due to their low armour values: this makes them vulnerable against constant cavalry assaults, or to any other type of unit in direct combat. They only have speed in their favour, but in the mid-game this is replaced with the superiority of Mirkwood units, especially the Palace Guard in dealing with cavalry extremely well and infantry reasonably well. The removal makes space for a new anti-cavalry unit, namely your Woodmen of the Anduin Vales
Step 2) The Woodmen of the Anduin Vales are introduced in the Beorninger Hut. They form the early and mid-game option against cavalry charges, which have become even more of a weakness for Lórien. They will carry spears and will get an ability that emphasises their role in defending their own home grounds as well as now protecting Lórien's borders.
Step 3) The Mirkwood Palace Guard is turned into a heroic unit battalion. In the Mirkwood subfaction there is no need for another anti-cavalry unit (such as would be introduced as Mirkwood Spearmen). As of now there exist also the Elkriders who have an ability that makes them very  efficient against cavalry charges. It will make the Mirkwood more necessary in Lórien's gameplay but I believe this is for good strategical balance and challenge, because it makes its general weakness against cavalry harder to neutralise. I will elaborate more on the Palace Guard's abilities in their own topic (of Suggestions).

In this suggestion we only need to find a way of making the Palace Guard interesting as a heroic unit, especially through abilities. A simple weapon toggle should be a level 1 ability, but we should debate the presence of their current ability.

Zitat
Defenders of Mirkwood - The Palace Guards are the elite defenders of Mirkwood and can turn enemy momentum against them. Any time a Palace Guard is trampled, all other nearby Palace Guards gain +50% armor, damage, and slow any additional enemy trampling 50% faster for 30 seconds.

I suggest this ability be unlocked at level 3 for instance, and the effects to be scaled over multiple levels (3,5,7) in order to make it more balanced.

In my opinion a third ability is need so necessary, many heroic units only dispose of two abilities, and with good reason Lórien has many strong late game units already (Ents, Beornings, Minstrels, Caras Galadhon Guardians).

I am very much willing to further this debate, it looks promising.

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #162 am: 15. Feb 2017, 02:39 »
The topic we recently discussed has now an own thread. Feedback, contributions, pledges in favour or against that concern these matters had better be forwarded there.

Gandalf7000

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #163 am: 29. Jan 2018, 20:27 »
A small suggestion to rename Elven Wood spellbook power to "Blessing of Yavanna" to better tie that with the Valar. (same as it was done for Cirdans' ability)

AulëTheSmith

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Re: Brief Lothlórien Suggestions
« Antwort #164 am: 29. Jan 2018, 20:59 »
A small suggestion to rename Elven Wood spellbook power to "Blessing of Yavanna" to better tie that with the Valar. (same as it was done for Cirdans' ability)

How could I ever say no to this suggestion ? :D
Btw, she's the mothers of ents and growing things. I think it is a fitting proposal. it's a yes for me ;)
Don't know what is the current state of Lorien spellbook but a name and eventually a different palantir should be easier to change in every step ;)