Lothlórien Balance Discussion

[Odysseus]

So there are two things I have to say about this game:

1. A slight nerf to the light ability might be in order, but not much. It's mainly because fragile heroes like Isengard's heroes suffer a lot from it, but then again, they need to be supported.

2. You were trolling your opponent the entire game, and he eventually punished you for it. That's all.

[Elite KryPtik]

I wasn't "trolling" as I said I was teaching my friend to play, and so was taking a bit longer than I normally would to finish off my opponent. Now that I know that the ability does such a frightening amount of damage, I will definitely not be attempting to defeat her with that method, I didn't know that it did so much damage the first couple times I attacked her. Regardless, I still think the damage is very high considering its combined with a 15 second-ish stun.

[Adrigabbro]

Just played a 4v4 that ended up in less than 20 minutes. We got completely crushed by beornings. I know we played poorly, but still, check it out. Even the other team agreed beornings need some kind of limitation or/and nerf.

[Odysseus]

I apologise for using the word ''trolling', it might be a bit offensive. Anyway, your friend is also my friend, good old Lotr1997.

I did agree with you on the damage of the ability so that is that. I doubt letting him win, will teach him how to play though, especially if it's because of the ring. Losing is the best way to learn, as you are certainly aware of .

Also, Beornings are weaker now, but they are still very useful. There are very, very few things I don't enjoy in this mod, but facing Beornings is one of them :/.

[Elite KryPtik]

I wasn't letting him win, he got the ring when I was getting ready to send rams into his base and finish him

I also agree that beornings still deal pretty strong damage to heroes, and don't take enough damage from them.

[SP19XX]

I was actually thinking that Legolas should have his archer train skill replaced. In its current format by the time it's unlocked it's very lackluster because most of Loriens archers can level up before its effective. Perhaps one of these could replace it;

Mount/Dismount - Legolas was quite often seen mounted on a horse and it would make him the only other mounted ranged hero (Gamling being the other). Plus it would allow him to act as a support for Thranduil and the Elk Riders.

Leadership that benefits archers in some form. - This ones a bit trickier on the exact mechanics but it would also serve as a buff to a number of units, maybe increasing their attack speed to match his own?

A skill that temporarily summons Gimli and / or Aragorn, that draws all aggression to himself in a short range, similar to the Ered Luin summons.

There are other potential options of course but I find that skill to be underwhelming as it is.

[Odysseus]

While I think that your reasoning is sound, and you propose some interesting things, I also believe that Legolas is already a pretty solid hero and I think this issue has an easier solution, namely by unlocking the ability at an earlier level. Saruman unlocks his power of speech at level 3 and he is more expensive than Legolas, so there is perhaps incentive for that. Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.

The Mount/Dismount might actually be interesting, but then Gamling kind of gets pooped on haha.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.

I don't like this idea. "Hawk Strike" is a very elementar spell in Legolas' arsenal, personally I think it was better off as his starting ability, but I get the reason for switching it with his melee ability. However having his signature snipe ability only unlocked at level 5 (or 7? Isn't his level 5 spell "Elven eye"? I don't know, please forgive me. ) would be way too late.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[SP19XX]

While I think that your reasoning is sound, and you propose some interesting things, I also believe that Legolas is already a pretty solid hero and I think this issue has an easier solution, namely by unlocking the ability at an earlier level. Saruman unlocks his power of speech at level 3 and he is more expensive than Legolas, so there is perhaps incentive for that. Switch around Hawk Strike and Train Archers, for instance.

The Mount/Dismount might actually be interesting, but then Gamling kind of gets pooped on haha.

Well the main idea of the Mount / Dismount was the idea of supporting Thranduil. In general the idea of the tank is to lure in enemies and heroes and stand against them for longer than other units while armies / hero killer / mass slayers support them.

With Thranduil having the role of tank and being Lorien's lone mounted hero meaning he's usually far ahead of the armies, and with Legolas being a hybrid Mass Slayer with a Hero Killing Aspect, it fits perfectly well for both of them to engage on the front lines together to cover eachother's weaknesses and improves the effectiveness of utilizing the Elk Riders, as they can have a hero supporting them.

To compensate the issue with Gamling perhaps he could recieve some nerfs overall while mounted to make up for it. But do however bear in mind this idea gives Legolas a mount at level 7, while Gamling can access it at any time so long as Rohan has a stables out. Not to mention Legolas and Gamling vary a lot in roles with Gamling being a unit supporter who can call out additional allies / supporting those he's near.

Edit: Note to mention at present most of the main Mass Slayers in other factions are in fact mounted or act as though they are. Eomer, Gandalf, Witch King, Smaug, etc.  Saruman, Gimli, Murin and Dwalin being the exceptions, however The Dwarves have no cavalry units at all except within the Iron Hills and Saruman has one of the most versatile set of roles in the game to make up for it.

[Odysseus]

Seems I forgot about the elven sight ability. That one could be a pretty decent alternative as well. While Legolas does have a hero killer aspect, his main strength comes from his standard attack and his arrow wind ability if you ask me. Mounting could be interesting, I am indifferent to what gets changed around, apart from the Hawk Strike and Arrow Wind.

[Elendils Cousin 3. Grades]

Please don't give Legolas a mount, it's the most boring ability ever. It would also be a balancing nightmare to have a mass slaying hero with that range and an ability that deals a lot of damage vs heroes on a horse so you can't outrun him... And if you nerf his damage on the horse, why get the horse at all? Also, just because the movies show him riding a horse sometimes doesn't mean he has to get the ability. By that logic pretty much every hero in the game could get a mount. And just the fact that some other heroes can mount doesn't mean Legolas has to have a mount as well.

That being said, I do agree that the training skill doesn't fit his mass slaying/hero killing role too well, although it is an iconic ability. But a leadership wouldn't solve this either. Having Gimli as a summon could work, but those kind of abilities are always a bit iffy to use and I generally don't like it (that's just personal preference though ).

[SP19XX]

Well as you said it's boring and indeed there are other options it's just that while an iconic ability from BFME it's just lack luster in it's current position because by the time it's obtained most Lorien/Mirkwood Archers are almost at the level cap or have reached it regardless.

The idea behind the Gimli suggestion was that he works in a slave system with his level 7 taunt ability as a passive, allowing Legolas to make full use of his arrow wind/hawk strike while being pressured for maximum damage.

The point is that skill most of the time feels wasted. If anyone else has a suggestion feel free to voice it though.

[Hamanathnath]

I personally feel that Gimli shouldn't be a summonable from Legolas.  The main reason for that is that Gimli is already in 2 factions (Dwarves,  And Rohan as a summon.)  Assuming that Imladris keeps its Council of Elrond power, which if I remember correctly, can summon Gimli, then that's 3 factions already.  If he is added to Lothlorien as well, then every good faction besides Gondor/Arnor has Gimli in some way.   Isn't that too much? 

Nothing against Gimli, in fact he is one of my favorite characters, but in my opinion he shouldn't be in that many factions. 

Also, I feel that Legolas, as a very skilled archer, should have his Train Archers ability, despite his role as a hero.  But like I said a few posts ago, maybe it should have another effect on top of giving exp. 

[SP19XX]

Well this might sound quite overwhelming but what if it instead targeted single battalions, and set them to max level, with a permanent ranged damage buff that doesn't stack. It could be minimal. It makes it a much more efficient skill in terms of use, but also means you have to pick wisely which battalion it's used on.

Or instead of a damage buff, a minor increase to their attack speed.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Those sort of skills never really work the way they are intended to do: The problem is that, eventhough the cursor shows you only clicking on one bataillon, it still effects everyone in a small area (like say Mornamarths old level 1 spell). Therefore you just have to clump your entire army and this will affect more than just one bataillon.
Also: I know the ability is not the special, but it still is a rather nice spell and it shows Lorien's archer focus. I personally just like the idea of those XP-generating spells if they are not used too frequently (which means, one per faction is enough ), but considering the good factions should always try to keep their troops alive and generally have more options to do so, I think it's already a neat spell. I'm open for discussion about Legolas, but this is one of his signature abilities since Battle for Middle Earth 1 and I don't really need every spell in the game to a complex, graphical array of amazement. It is a common misconception that more complex spells make the game(play) itself more complex, sometimes a straight-forward ability is just what does the job. E.g. leveling archers essentially gives them better stats why making it more complicated with such a unique buff? (Note that this shouldn't imply you were suggesting something needlessly complicated!)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir