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Autor Thema: Lothlórien Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 97192 mal)

Sir_Stig

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #15 am: 12. Nov 2015, 19:54 »
I definitely support a nerf of beornings, currently they are too powerful in human form. I would heavily nerf their unit damage in human form and/or make them more vulnerable to arrows, while keeping their building damage. Basically I want bear form for wrecking units, human form for basically being a battering ram. I wouldn't mind galadriel's elven gifts moving to level 5 or even 3, it's tough to level her fast enough to get more than maybe 2 heroes with the gifts.

DrHouse93

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #16 am: 12. Nov 2015, 23:53 »
I agree with Sir_Stig, though I'd prefer Gifts of Lorien to be moved to lower levels. Actually, level 7 it's pretty far, and most of the time, if you're skilled enough, by the time you get the ability the game is almost over, therefore making it nearly useless (while it should be a key mechanic)

Draco100000

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #17 am: 13. Nov 2015, 16:44 »
Is a fact that a beorning should cost more than a cirith ungol batallion because they are game-breaking. Early game have no sense against them, the only counter that i have found is get early forged blades that just destroy them, against the bear-form pikes, and against the normal form, swordsmen. The best anti-beorning faction in fact is Gondor because of high numbers and medium tiered basic infantry, then the anti-monsters units of Erebor and Ironhills from their outposts. The best way would be increasing to 500 the cost of Beornings and the honey house cost to 800. Making them an avaiablke tactic for mid game. But it is my sugestion any nerf you make to them will balance a bit more the new elves.

 

ziqing

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #18 am: 17. Nov 2015, 06:09 »
I do feel as the only good faction without walls, Lorien Citadel is extremely vulnerable against siege weapon, two Battering Ram of Isengard near the Citadel  could easily destroy it and all buildings

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #19 am: 17. Nov 2015, 20:17 »
Silverthorns wreck battering rams.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #20 am: 25. Nov 2015, 07:13 »
Just wanted to post a link to some points I made in the replay section rather than retyping everything. I wouldn't say its off topic as the reason I posted the replay was to demonstrate the points I listed, which is why I put them in the replay thread under the same post as the posted replay.

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31431.0/topicseen.html
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #21 am: 25. Nov 2015, 10:31 »
The replay thread is not meant to discuss ideas. If you have suggestions, it's best to post them in the appropriate thread and link to the replay that proves the point if you have one. I'm not sure if you can actually attach replays in this forum area, is that possible? If so, there's nothing wrong with attaching a replay to a suggestion if it helps illustrate your point. If that's not possible at the moment I'll look into enabling it.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #22 am: 25. Nov 2015, 20:48 »
@Elite KryPtik:
I just watched your replay. I won't say I disagree with you but keep in mind that when Gondor charged your pikesmen, he got fully upgraded knights (heavy armor and knight shields) with Dol Amroth soldiers and level 3 Imrahil. I don't think winning this battle was outrageous. ^^


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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #23 am: 25. Nov 2015, 22:26 »
It's kind of tricky to judge, but I'll do it anyway.

First and foremost, Golf of Lune is in my opinion way too friendly to the strategy Legolas employed during your game. Just sit back and build tons of resource structures behind gates and watch the money roll in when they are eventually upgraded. It's extremely risky to raid your opponent's base in this mod anyway, especially with castles. On such a big 1v1 map, it becomes even more evident. This is why I prefer outposts, but that's just me.

Furthermore, it's easy to say this in hindsight, but you made a couple of mistakes.
Immediately going for Beornings was the first mistake, in my opinion. They are too expensive too rush and should time similarly as light siege. Do players rush siege works? Not really, so there is that. However, I do agree with your trampling immunity argument. Also, as they fullfill that role, it is generally a bad idea to use light siege (Beornings thus) against cavalry, because that is what they are most vulnerable to. Yes, even when Beornings do such high single target damage. It is too risky, I find.

The second mistake was not upgrading your lothlorien pikes sooner with master blades. Upgrading archers against cavalry is normally a bad idea, since well you know...cavalry are the natural counter to archers. What you could have tried was to stun his massive cavalry blob with the mystical stream spell and encircle them with master bladed pikes. That would have been nasty.

The third mistake was not concentrating your efforts on the Mirkwood outpost. Generally, lothlorien pikes will do well against regular cavalry, but once they have fully upgraded Gondor Knights, inspired by Dol Amroth Knights, it becomes a different story as you are aware. Generally, if possible, you should anticipate cavalry spam from Gondor when playing as Elves, and try to get out Palace Guards as soon as possible and upgrade them. They will poop on them.

There were some other mistakes, which I forgot by the time I wrote this. You'd also have the typical minor micro mistakes, but the game is old and it is not the most competitive enviroment friendly game, so it is indeed hard to pull off. Like my micro is impeccable in this game haha (I wish it was.)

To wrap things up, I actually think the most remarkable thing of this replay are the eagles versus catapults. I think it is incredibly clear in this replay that flying units do very little against siege units, which we are anxiously awaiting for the corresponding changes from the team xD.

Kind regards.




“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #24 am: 26. Nov 2015, 04:20 »
I was referring to the earlier fight, I think it was 3 units of normal gondor knights without upgrades against what was predominantly pikes in my army, 3 or 4 battalions of them, he cleaned them up no problem. As for upgrading, I didn't go for master blades first for 2 reasons. Firstly, the strategy I was attempting to employ, with varying degrees of success, was to have the pikes catch the cavalry and then have the archers deal the real damage. This was due to the pikes unimpressive performance earlier against normal knights without upgrades. Secondly, its because I wanted to try out the singers trample immunity combined with my Galadhrim, which I had not done yet.

As for rushing Beornings, I did that on purpose to see whether they are still OP or not, because believe me before the patch rushing Beornings was SUPER effective. You may notice that once I realized how bad they were I immediately stopped using them? I think the nerfs were very effective, though I'm not sure if I agree with the price increase on top of the stat reductions. I definitely don't agree with the price increase to the Beorning Homestead itself, I think it should still be 400. Nice to see 2 other people who disagree with Beornings being trampled though :)

Another point is that I really couldn't afford to get Master Blades fast enough to counter him, because of how freaking expensive they are, coupled with the Elves slower than average income rate. This is why I REALLY think that the command points upgrade should be moved to the citadel and made to give more command points per upgrade while being more expensive. This way people don't have to make so many Border Guardhouses, and can get cheaper upgrades sooner if they wish, or can go for a discount on Galadhrim or Heroes. In order for the playstyle to be truly customizable depending on the players desires, there shouldn't be something as essential as a command points upgrade on 1 of the auxiliary structures, because this forces the player to have at least 2 of the basic buildings for the command points. If I could have made 3 Forges and upgrade, it might have turned the game around.

Finally, if you watch the first 15 minutes again, you will see that he rushed to the outpost very quickly before I was even prepared to clear the cave troll, there was no way I could've cleared that out and built the Mirkwood outpost in time, compared to how fast he did it. I also did not have enough money to build it either. Porbably the only real "mistake" that I can think of that was just a complete failure and not me being outplayed, was that terrible attack on his outpost. That may well have cost me the game.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Nov 2015, 04:29 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #25 am: 26. Nov 2015, 14:04 »
Sorry but you are wrong: even in the earlier fight ALL of his knights got heavy armor (even though there was no dol amroth and no knight shields).

Rushing beornings used to be efficient of course, because they were overpowered as hell (and I think it is still not enough to describe how strong they were). Trust me they are still very strong, just do not rush them. The only thing I'd agree with you on is the trample thing, that was perhaps not necessary. Everything else, especially the prices of beornings and the Hut, is deserved in my opinion.

Concerning your last point,  I haven't played Lorien enough to discuss it.


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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #26 am: 26. Nov 2015, 14:58 »
Hmm yes, in terms of micro, you were outplayed by Legolas a couple of times as well. But again, the only reason why he got to upgrade his knights so quickly was because of all the upgraded Blacksmiths in his castle. Seriously, Golf of Lune is not the most competitive map. The only way to prove this would be to reenact the match, but then switch sides and employ the same strategies. The outcome would probably silence our discussion :P.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #27 am: 26. Nov 2015, 19:52 »
Well if we're only going to base balance on "competitive" maps, then wtf is the point in having all these cool extra ones? It should be competitive on ALL maps. Also, remember that replays don't replay the lag, which was fairly annoying in this match. I don't think that he legitimately out-microed me at all, even if I was outplayed on the whole, especially considering I had won 2 matches in a row before this. Its not hard to trample with cavalry effectively. Not to say that I didn't make mistakes, but our micro was more or less on par. Anyways it wouldn't much matter what map we were on, Gondor can still spam blacksmiths and rush upgrades waaaay before Lothlorien can due to the building system, bringing me back to my previous point about the command points being on the Border Guardhouse.

Finally, not to be rude, but I would appreciate if you wouldn't derail the argument with things like who has better micro, because the majority of people who play this mod aren't "pros" and are just playing for fun, which means many people who you play with online are around average skill. Legolas and myself are a couple of exceptions to this rule, along with some others that I know of, like Skeeverboy, Mogat, and Draco10000.

Also Adriggabro, if they truly already had heavy armor in the very first fight, then I didn't see it. I guess it just didn't stand out enough for me to notice it.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Gnomi

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #28 am: 26. Nov 2015, 20:09 »
It's impossible to balance for all maps, as there are too many things to consider. F.e. if you have a map without any settlements and only about one screen area between the castles and another map with hundreds of settlements and with three times the size of Fords of Isen, there will be many balance differences:
Factions which are faster and are really good at harassing the enemy, but aren't as good in direct fights will probably be much weaker in the first map, but much stronger in the second map - additionally those factions will be stronger when the maps are more open without many small passages. So it's impossible to balance the game for every map. On some maps some factions will be stronger and on others they'll be weaker.
If we change the factions because of the map Golf of Lune and make it balanced for that map, then the balance for all other maps with easier harassment are also changed and probably will be worse.
That's something we can't change and will always be this way. So we're having a couple of maps which are made for competitive play and try to balance for those maps.
You're playing on a map which is balanced for both players, but not for all factions. Those maps are in the game, because there are also a lot of players who like to play against the AI or, even if playing against humen, don't want a completely competitive play as they don't like the more intensive and faster playstyle. So we have also maps for those players which will give those players a possibility to have their games where they can fight without being stressed all the time. :) But of course the balance will be worse on those maps - but as they're not using every unit to its most use, they're already playing with deformed balance.

So, if you really want to play as competitive as possible, play on some other maps. Currently I'ld recommend for such plays:
Arnor:Forochel
Arnor: Mitheithel spring
Arnor: Mountains of Angmar
Brandywine
Carnenquelle
Dunland
Fords of Isen II
Forelands of Emyn Muil
Iron Hills
Morgai

(note: I haven't played some of the other maps yet, especially the Bfme I maps. I think some of them could also be really good)

Probably you can also play some more 1vs1 maps competitively, but those are the maps I'ld name if someone asks me - I love to play some of the other maps too, but I play those more against the AI or if I don't want a 100% competitive play, but something different and interesting. For example Dor-en-Ernil is a really intersting map, which has other things to think about. I wouldn't play this map in a tournament, but I think it's really interesting to play on it. :)
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Nov 2015, 20:12 von Gnomi »

Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #29 am: 26. Nov 2015, 21:04 »
Wow mates, take it easy haha. It wasn't my intention to have it derail like that. I am just saying that in a competitive environment any factors that can affect gameplay have to be considered. Macro, Micro, the map, lag etc. It was just an observation.

I am also just saying that Golf of Lune is an okay map, but there are more favoured and competitive maps out there, like some examples given by Gnomi. Either way, the smaller the map is in reasonable terms, the more chance it has to contend for a competitive map. It does not have to be the case of course, but it is more likely. In short, it contributed to your loss, but wasn't the overall deciding factor. That is all. It was just a statement.

Anyway, as you said yourself, you were experimenting with a strategy, and in the end, it didn't work out. A shift in tactics might be required. If Gondor spams blacksmiths, I suppose it would be fair to say that there must be a way to hamper them from doing so. In other words, harass the enemy base with light siege to break a gate if required. Personally, not to be rude myself, but player skill is always important and should always be incorporated into how the balance of a match plays out. Mistakes I believe I had already pointed out, like going for silverthorns over master blades first or using the eagles to focus fire on the catapults, which are currently known to be very ineffective against them. The biggest boon of cavalry is their mobility, so once you take that away, by using the mystic stream on them for instance and following it up with master bladed pikes might have swung some of the engagements into your favour and evened the match a little.

Either way, thank you for the input, both of you.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Nov 2015, 21:23 von Odysseus »
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”