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Lothlórien Balance Discussion

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Elite KryPtik:
Just wanted to post a link to some points I made in the replay section rather than retyping everything. I wouldn't say its off topic as the reason I posted the replay was to demonstrate the points I listed, which is why I put them in the replay thread under the same post as the posted replay.

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31431.0/topicseen.html

Lord of Mordor:
The replay thread is not meant to discuss ideas. If you have suggestions, it's best to post them in the appropriate thread and link to the replay that proves the point if you have one. I'm not sure if you can actually attach replays in this forum area, is that possible? If so, there's nothing wrong with attaching a replay to a suggestion if it helps illustrate your point. If that's not possible at the moment I'll look into enabling it.

Adrigabbro:
@Elite KryPtik:
I just watched your replay. I won't say I disagree with you but keep in mind that when Gondor charged your pikesmen, he got fully upgraded knights (heavy armor and knight shields) with Dol Amroth soldiers and level 3 Imrahil. I don't think winning this battle was outrageous. ^^

Odysseus:
It's kind of tricky to judge, but I'll do it anyway.

First and foremost, Golf of Lune is in my opinion way too friendly to the strategy Legolas employed during your game. Just sit back and build tons of resource structures behind gates and watch the money roll in when they are eventually upgraded. It's extremely risky to raid your opponent's base in this mod anyway, especially with castles. On such a big 1v1 map, it becomes even more evident. This is why I prefer outposts, but that's just me.

Furthermore, it's easy to say this in hindsight, but you made a couple of mistakes.
Immediately going for Beornings was the first mistake, in my opinion. They are too expensive too rush and should time similarly as light siege. Do players rush siege works? Not really, so there is that. However, I do agree with your trampling immunity argument. Also, as they fullfill that role, it is generally a bad idea to use light siege (Beornings thus) against cavalry, because that is what they are most vulnerable to. Yes, even when Beornings do such high single target damage. It is too risky, I find.

The second mistake was not upgrading your lothlorien pikes sooner with master blades. Upgrading archers against cavalry is normally a bad idea, since well you know...cavalry are the natural counter to archers. What you could have tried was to stun his massive cavalry blob with the mystical stream spell and encircle them with master bladed pikes. That would have been nasty.

The third mistake was not concentrating your efforts on the Mirkwood outpost. Generally, lothlorien pikes will do well against regular cavalry, but once they have fully upgraded Gondor Knights, inspired by Dol Amroth Knights, it becomes a different story as you are aware. Generally, if possible, you should anticipate cavalry spam from Gondor when playing as Elves, and try to get out Palace Guards as soon as possible and upgrade them. They will poop on them.

There were some other mistakes, which I forgot by the time I wrote this. You'd also have the typical minor micro mistakes, but the game is old and it is not the most competitive enviroment friendly game, so it is indeed hard to pull off. Like my micro is impeccable in this game haha (I wish it was.)

To wrap things up, I actually think the most remarkable thing of this replay are the eagles versus catapults. I think it is incredibly clear in this replay that flying units do very little against siege units, which we are anxiously awaiting for the corresponding changes from the team xD.

Kind regards.

Elite KryPtik:
I was referring to the earlier fight, I think it was 3 units of normal gondor knights without upgrades against what was predominantly pikes in my army, 3 or 4 battalions of them, he cleaned them up no problem. As for upgrading, I didn't go for master blades first for 2 reasons. Firstly, the strategy I was attempting to employ, with varying degrees of success, was to have the pikes catch the cavalry and then have the archers deal the real damage. This was due to the pikes unimpressive performance earlier against normal knights without upgrades. Secondly, its because I wanted to try out the singers trample immunity combined with my Galadhrim, which I had not done yet.

As for rushing Beornings, I did that on purpose to see whether they are still OP or not, because believe me before the patch rushing Beornings was SUPER effective. You may notice that once I realized how bad they were I immediately stopped using them? I think the nerfs were very effective, though I'm not sure if I agree with the price increase on top of the stat reductions. I definitely don't agree with the price increase to the Beorning Homestead itself, I think it should still be 400. Nice to see 2 other people who disagree with Beornings being trampled though :)

Another point is that I really couldn't afford to get Master Blades fast enough to counter him, because of how freaking expensive they are, coupled with the Elves slower than average income rate. This is why I REALLY think that the command points upgrade should be moved to the citadel and made to give more command points per upgrade while being more expensive. This way people don't have to make so many Border Guardhouses, and can get cheaper upgrades sooner if they wish, or can go for a discount on Galadhrim or Heroes. In order for the playstyle to be truly customizable depending on the players desires, there shouldn't be something as essential as a command points upgrade on 1 of the auxiliary structures, because this forces the player to have at least 2 of the basic buildings for the command points. If I could have made 3 Forges and upgrade, it might have turned the game around.

Finally, if you watch the first 15 minutes again, you will see that he rushed to the outpost very quickly before I was even prepared to clear the cave troll, there was no way I could've cleared that out and built the Mirkwood outpost in time, compared to how fast he did it. I also did not have enough money to build it either. Porbably the only real "mistake" that I can think of that was just a complete failure and not me being outplayed, was that terrible attack on his outpost. That may well have cost me the game.

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