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Autor Thema: Lothlórien Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 97214 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #30 am: 27. Nov 2015, 04:16 »
Didn't mean to come off as rude at any point, sorry if I did. Anyways I did use mystical stream combined with pikes a couple times, even with master blades at one point I think, but it wasn't enough. Lorien are still overall very vulnerable vs cavalry spam, regardless of player skill or map. Even the palace guards aren't that great, they are just a bit tankier than Lorien pikes. This is the main point I was bringing up, along with the point that I think Beornings should be immune to trample, and the command points upgrade should be on the citadel, NOT the guardhouse. The guardhouse should get a different unique upgrade, for example something like each of the 4 upgrades gives a slight boost in exp earned in combat, that's 1 idea anyways. The point is as long as the command points upgrade is on the guardhouse it forces the player to use it, and therefore prevents them from getting the discounts provided by the other 3 buildings.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #31 am: 27. Nov 2015, 05:16 »
I watched the match again this afternoon, and most of the times, the mystical stream was used a bit too early, lacking follow-up momentum, which in turn leads to the wasting of some crucial seconds. You started using it more efficiently towards the end, but by then it was not proving to be enough anymore.

Anyway, we'll see eventually what the team will do about it. I was thinking, if it was possible to add some additional formation or ability to the pikemen and/or Palace Guards that gives them a bit of a boost against cavalry or at least when being charged down. I see not that much that can be done here, since, without deforming Lothlorien's basic concept, the only way would be to buff the natural counter to cavalry, but that is a risky business, as we know.
Or something like a passive curved blades ability that makes their pikemen decrease armour or speed from cavalry or something. Any thoughts on that?

About the CP, what if it was slightly increased? I mean, it would normally still be the thing to upgrade your Mallorn Trees with CP, so I think this might be a bit too soon to judge on this feature as well. I don't completely agree with the CP being at the Citadel, even though it might make sense. I think the whole idea was to give you an advantage for it being much better protected, but that it would not completely make CP upgrades on Mallorn Trees pointless. You could have deleted your Beorning house, then build a Mallorn Tree and go for the double CP upgrade. However, I also somewhat agree that profiting from the other discounts is kind of a problem for Lothlorien, but not because of the Border Guard thing, but because they have so few build plots, in my opinion.

Oh well, I suppose it is in the past, so I suggest we should be done with it. I hope that a dev can shed some light on this so that we can call it a day haha.

Kind regards.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #32 am: 27. Nov 2015, 05:54 »
The number of build plots they have isn't an issue. As for making cp upgrades on mallorn trees, they are your only source of real income, as the amount you make from your base is quite small (as you noted, lack of build plots ;)) Putting double resources on your mallorn trees is the only real way to stay competitive right now. So something needs to change, be it either the amount of money you can make from your citadel buildings, the amount of command points granted by each upgrade on the border guardhouse, or by putting the command points upgrade on the citadel and giving the border guardhouse a different unique upgrade, which I think makes the most sense.

I don't think that it would be unreasonable or unfitting to Loriens concept to give the pikeguards some kind of basic formation, at least then they would be somewhat useful against pikes. Currently, If your in the situation I was in, where you are being spammed with cavalry and are unable to get the Palace Guard, you're basically, pardon my French, fucked. This really isn't fair, even with the argument that my micro was apparently so horrible, and I should have gotten master blades first. I'm telling ya, it would not have made a huge difference, I can tell. If you want to find out for sure, find me on gameranger, my name is E_KryPtik on there.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Nov 2015, 05:58 von Elite KryPtik »
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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #33 am: 27. Nov 2015, 09:32 »
 This is completely off topic, but I believe Mirkwood's outpost should cost 1600 (not 1200)                         In any multiplayer game, elves always instantly get Mirkwood. And from what i've seen, mirkwood is more valuable than the normal outpost option. (which costs the same)
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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #34 am: 27. Nov 2015, 14:38 »
@Kryptik

No mate, I didn't say that. Please, don't twist my words, you're making me look bad :P. I was just saying that in certain occasions in the match, your opponent outsmarted you. Like going for that Dol Amroth Fortress and losing the remainder of your soldiers was also a waste.

I will need to install Gameranger then, if I take you up on your offer haha.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #35 am: 27. Nov 2015, 18:52 »
I think you are taking the problem in the wrong way. You want the command points to come with all the buildings in the Citadel because, quote, "Putting double resources on your mallorn trees is the only real way to stay competitive right now" and having then to build a couple Border Guardhouses makes you unable to get discounts.

Well, the easiest and best solution, in my opinion, is simply to increase the amount of resourcs earned in the Citadel so that you can upgrade mallorn trees with command points.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #36 am: 27. Nov 2015, 19:40 »
Could you please explain to me, Odysseus, where I twisted your words?

Adriggabro, putting double resources on Mallorn Trees IS the only real way to stay competitive right now, but that is not the main reason that I want this change, every other faction puts double resources on outer farms as well. The main reason I want this change is so that the player isn't forced to get the Border Guardhouse. Your idea could work, although I think it may be a bit unimaginative(no offense, just my opinion), and it also still forces the player to use Mallorn Trees for command points. If the command points upgrade was on the citadel, costing a bit more than the current ones in the border guardhouses, like 600 per upgrade and giving more command points, maybe like 250 per upgrade, then it would be very much more balanced I believe.

Now if this change were implemented, we would need a new upgrade for the Border Guardhouse as well, so that it would stay competitive with the other buildings to make players want to get it. With this method the player could get 1000 command points from his citadel, which is still less on the whole than other factions can get inside their castle, and could then mix and match Mallorn Trees to get resources and pantry. Finally it would solve the main issue of being forced to get border guardhouses, and allow the player to get different discounts from different buildings.
« Letzte Änderung: 27. Nov 2015, 19:43 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #37 am: 27. Nov 2015, 21:43 »
Zitat
This really isn't fair, even with the argument that my micro was apparently so horrible, and I should have gotten master blades first.
I didn't say it was horrible. I never would, since I don't know you and you probably don't know me haha. Anyway, I'm not sure what tweaks would be in order really. I doubt the CP thing will solve the cavalry issue. Buffing the resources also seems to be somewhat more logical to me, but that's just me.

I did some checking and perhaps there would be a way to obtain a level 2 forge faster. For instance, reduce the cost of the 2000 upgrade that levels all your structures to level 3 to 1500. That way, there would be quicker access to Master Blades. Another thing could be to split that upgrade into a 750-1000 cost to instantly upgrade your structures to level 2 and then a seperate one for level 3 at the the same cost or slightly more.

Finally, what would you suggest then instead of the CP? If you could place some more effort into your alternative, you might just sway my opinion :P.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #38 am: 28. Nov 2015, 00:12 »
I was just being sarcastic, I know you never said my micro was horrible, was meant to be funny. Also I already suggested an alternative upgrade for the Border Guardhouse, if you look back through my posts, which I believe was a boost in experience gained from combat.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #39 am: 28. Nov 2015, 13:20 »
Lorien's castle income isn't actually that low. Yes, you have only five build plots, but all your buildings generate resources. Dwarves and Rohan have seven plots, but if we assume that they build one barracks and one forge, they don't have more space for resource buildings than Lorien has. With smaller camps it's four for Lorien and six for everyone else, but again the other factions can't spend all their plots on resource buildings.

A Lorien castle at rank three with one fully upgraded Borderguard house produces 200 resources and grants 630 command points. A Dwarven castle with five mines, three of them upgraded for resource production and two for command points, produces 192 resources and grants 870 command points. In terms of resources Lorien is actually very slightly ahead, but I agree it's a discrepancy in command points. However, I don't see a fundamental issue with the border guard house granting command points. It's your basic barracks and you should have at least one anyway, and it's more vulnerable to attack than the Citadel - same as the command point structures for all other factions, which can also be destroyed. So I think the simplest step would be to just increase the command points for each border guard house by 50% (from 480 altogether to 720). That way, you get a more solid CP foundation from one guardhouse and can then choose whether you want a second in your base or upgrade one or two mallorn trees. In terms of overall production, you won't lag behind other factions in either case because they lower their production with each resource structure they dedicate to command points.

The pikeman issue might hint at a more fundamental problem though. Lorien's pikemen are not actually weaker than, say, Dwarven pikes, and Dwarves don't even have elite pikes like the palace Guard. Do other factions struggle to counter cavalry with their pikes as well? (leaving aside Gondor, who have the best pikes in the game) If not, what do you think is the difference between them and Lorien when the Lorien pikes themselves are roughly the same strength? It's important to discern whether this is a Lorien issue or a more general problem.

One thing that needs to be kept in mind though: You are in fact expected to keep your pikemen strength up with your enemy's cavalry power. If he comes at you with heavily armored elite knights or even Knights of Dol Amroth, then basic Lorien pikes might well not be enough. If they were, what would the incentive be to ever build elite pikemen or upgrade them? Lorien's master blades especially are twice as powerful as other faction's forged blades and grant a huge boost in damage, while the Palace Guard can use their formation to stop cavalry more efficiently. You should need to make use of these to stop the strongest cavalry armies. Of course if you do use them and cavalry still wins, we have a problem.

Beornings really shouldn't be Lorien's counter to cavalry by the way, simply because they shouldn't counter everything. They're already good against structures, heroes, swordsmen, pikemen (in human form) and even archers if they get to them.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Nov 2015, 16:54 von Lord of Mordor »
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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #40 am: 28. Nov 2015, 16:39 »
Yes, an answer from a dev xD.

Thanks Lord of Mordor, for the answer. I completely agree with what you have to say. I noticed I hadn't written that down, about simply increasing the CP of the Border Guard house upgrade, even though I intended to and I simply forgot 8-|. Perhaps this is a good first step to try out. The buff could start even smaller if you ask me.

I hope this is not off-topic, but would you be willing to explain how exactly all buildings of the Lothlorien camp level up apart from the systematic growth upgrade? Simply by producing units and research upgrades or is there anything else?
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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #41 am: 28. Nov 2015, 16:57 »
The structures in Lorien's castle all level over time. This is both blessing and curse: They level up for free while other factions have to pay, but they take longer.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #42 am: 28. Nov 2015, 22:58 »
Thanks for the reply LoM :)

I agree with making the Border Guardhouse grant more CP, at least then you would only have to make 1 of them and could get a different discount for late game. As for the production, all I know is that every game I have played, It seems like I get resources slower than the other factions, and all my friends who play with me on gameranger(about 7 or 8 people) agree with this statement. So if the facts dispute that, maybe its something to do with the pricing structure that makes it feel so slow compared to other factions. Anyways, I never had an issue with the pricing, all other factions make double resources on outer farms and CP on inner farms too, that's the most efficient way to do it.

In regards to the pikes, I think the fundamental problem is the lack of armor. Sure, they deal lots of damage with upgraded blades, but they still take HUGE damage on the initial trample, especially if the cavalry has forged blades and heavy armor/shields. It also doesn't help that lorien pikeguards are kind of squishy to begin with. In terms of the Palace Guard, I have never had any trouble defeating them with cavalry when playing against Lothlorien, although I personally have not gotten a chance to use them yet. I am sure that they are much better than the pikeguard, but the point that I was trying to make is that if you DON'T have an outpost, or are unable to get one fast enough, all your enemy has to do is spam cavalry and they win. This is a similar problem that Rohan currently faces late game, but opposite, against Gondor and Isengard and Dwarves, all they need is upgraded pikes to completely ruin your late game cavalry. That is what I don't like, when something becomes as simple as "Do X to win" and that is what I've always gotten in the biggest discussions about regarding balance. :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #43 am: 28. Nov 2015, 23:28 »
To be honest, I'm a bit at a loss for why normal Dwarven pikemen with upgrades should be able to counter every cavalry army while the Mirkwood Palace Guard is easily defeated. Heavy armor really shouldn't be the deciding factor here - even Knights of Dol Amroth deal less than 100 damage to pikemen when they trample them. Even the basic Lorien pikes have 415 health and should be able to survive several charges, giving back more than 300 damage each time. With master blades, one Lorien pikeman deals over 900 damage when he's trampled, about half the health of a Knight of Dol Amroth. So if five knights charge into ten Lorien pikemen, it should be devastating for them.

I'm just not quite sure what we should change here because judging by their values they already are very good against cavalry - and not actually weaker than Dwarven pikemen, the only difference being that they can't get heavy armor and get better forged blades instead. But that should actually be a bonus because Pikemen have very good resistance against trampling damage in general and giving more damage back when being trampled is more valuable against cavalry.

(on the flipside, don't Rohan horse archers and the Royal Guard with their new ability work against Pikemen?)

For the border guard house, we'll test out the increased CP and see how it goes :) As for Lorien's production, it might be helpful if people took a look at their statistics after each game with Lorien, where you can see your total income AND the highest income per minute you had during the game. It would be very helpful to know if these values are consistently lower than other factions, and by how much.
« Letzte Änderung: 28. Nov 2015, 23:34 von Lord of Mordor »
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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #44 am: 29. Nov 2015, 00:31 »
I doubt that statistics lie. Perhaps the increased CP upgrade will make it so that Kryptik can get enough Pikemen with Master Blades to counter Cavalry Spam :P. Forgive my banter, but I just had to.

Ps. Rohan is fine :P
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