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Autor Thema: Lothlórien Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 99217 mal)

CragLord

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #60 am: 1. Dez 2015, 01:27 »
It is ok, Elite,
I make mess with words "sometimes"... xD :)
If situation about range attack and damage in game is like that (that armor increase effects all  type of arrows damage in game), then situation shouldn't be bother with.
But if it is possible to change that only in way as you have described (armor against only range damage of defensive structures or defensive upgrades attack on structures), then it should be changed in my opinion.

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #61 am: 1. Dez 2015, 01:30 »
Turret arrows actually use their own damage type, so you can easily buff specific units against them without affecting normal arrows. Would you say Ents are fine against normal arrows from rangers and the like?
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Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #62 am: 1. Dez 2015, 01:36 »
For me, yes.
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CragLord

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #63 am: 1. Dez 2015, 01:39 »
Thanks LoM for quick answer.
As I have tried to point out I just had problem with damage which ent received from regular arrows of defensive towers and citadel and defensive lvl 3 upgrade of recourse structures. I have tried to explain that mainly because I experienced such situation in game and in my opinion it was out of place.
Concerning regular arrow damage of units, I haven't checked that, or tested them so far to be honest. In some real situation regular arrows shouldn't damage them at all, not matter are they from units or structures...
In my thinking, ents should be countered only with upgraded arrows (fire at first place, and other types of upgraded), pikes, axes (of some units ofc) and other siege.
Again, I don't have experience in balance term to claim with 100% that this should work in game or that is the best choice.
For now maybe we should buff their armor against those structure regular arrows and see what it will look like in next patch. This is beta phase, and we should tested I think. After that we can speak more about it?

Regards,
Crag
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Dez 2015, 01:50 von CragLord »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #64 am: 1. Dez 2015, 04:33 »
I personally don't think that they need a buff, the ents are already quite strong. Every game I have played with them they were either wrecking me or I was wrecking people with them. I really don't care about defensive tower damage either way because if I am sending them in melee mode there's going to be more than 1 of them. As for regular arrows from rangers and others, I haven't had a lot of experience with them, I usually try to upgrade my arrows as soon as possible. 1 thing I think could use a buff against them is steel bolts of Isengard, I think Isengard is currently the weakest at killing Ents. All upgraded arrows should deal similar damage to Ents in my view, just to make it fair.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #65 am: 1. Dez 2015, 08:45 »
Another thing that should be mentioned, that I frequently mentioned while this was in beta: If Galadriel rejects the Ring, it becomes impossible for the enemy to reclaim it. This is really unfair, that Lothlorien can literally make the Ring disappear. If the Ring is rejected, Frodo should be summoned along with Sam immediately near Galadriel, and be able to drop the Ring if he is killed.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #66 am: 2. Dez 2015, 05:10 »
So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

Firstly, Lothlorien are not only weak against cavalry of Gondor, but also tower guard spam. Over and over again, he would hit me with massive tower guard armies that just, wouldn't, freaking, die. Even with a bunch of galadhrim with silverthorns, and caras galadhon guardians, I just wasn't dealing enough damage, and the conflict would destroy both of out armies. I highly recommend increasing the damage of silverthorn arrows, they seem rather weak right now. After all, Lorien is supposed to be the highest damage archer faction, to make up for their lack of heavy armor.

Secondly, Elves really have no good counter against siege positioned behind an enemy army. He sniped me with these all game, killing my heroes and huge clumps of my army, and I could not really do much of anything about it. For those of you who say that ents could counter, he had fire stones. 1 shot and the ent would be lit up and run off and die. I suppose Beornings could be used to counter, but I was not getting them because they cannot effectively counter tower guards, and additionally the other opponent was Rohan, who could just trample them to death with no problem. Another point in regards to Ents is that they cost too many command points, I can't see them being worth more than 45 in relation to their resource cost. How many command points do trolls cost? They should be identical.

Thirdly, Galadriel takes WAY too long to level up, I wasn't able to make use of her level 10 invincibility until the last 10 minutes of the game, at which point we had already basically lost. She is also incredibly vulnerable to siege and arrows, I think that she should perhaps receive a little bit of a buff in resistance to ranged, considering how expensive she is. Also, glance in the mirror is utterly useless, if the negative effect were removed it would be useful.

Fourth, Palace Guards aren't really very great. The damage is nice, but honestly it isn't enough. They cannot survive in prolonged melee against much of anything. I think that the palace guards alone, due to their heavily armored look, should be the only unit able to research heavy armor as a default upgrade, and they should have a formation better than porcupine formation, something that gives some armor.

Fifth, the Elves late game powers aren't that great. The Rain doesn't do much damage to late game upgraded armies, and the boat can be overpowered by other powers, such as army of the dead. I think they should both be buffed, the boat by a small amount, the rain by a fair amount. Also, even with the spell which reduces cooldown times, my spells seemed to be taking a very long time to recharge. Cooldowns should perhaps receive a second look.

Sixth, the elves don't really have any great mass slayer heroes. The only decent mass slayer power is Legolas' Arrow Wind, which he doesn't get until level 10. I'm not really sure how to address this, maybe improve Grimbeorns powers? I also think he's a little too expensive, he's worth maybe at most 2000.

That's the majority of the points I can think of right now, I will post the replay of the game I'm talking about in the replays section for your enjoyment, and I'm sure I will have about 10 million people pointing out mistakes I made in game :P To sum it up, I would call Lorien the 2nd weakest faction in late game with the current balance, behind Rohan. They are especially weak against Gondor, who have the perfect roster to clean them up, either with tower guard spam or cavalry.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #67 am: 2. Dez 2015, 08:29 »
So, I just had a long, epic 2v2 with Lothlorien, I'll post the replay in the replays section. There are many big issues that have come to bear, it seems that Lothlorien really are one of the weakest factions in late game. I'll list my points below.

Yeah I'm the one who fought KryPtik in this match, and I want to share my thoughts on this.  Before I start, KryPtik did upload this replay to the forums, so if you want to see the match for yourself, It is there. 

After a certain point in this match, there are only 3 units I am using, which were Tower Guards, Trebuchets, and Boromir.  Yes, there are a few times where I throw Beregond in, and there is one point where I make a Battering Ram.  But those 3 units is what is making up my army everytime.  Almost everytime before I leave my base, I make sure my Tower Guards have Heavy Armour and, if I could afford it, Banner Carriers.  I never bought Forged Blades for any unit.  From what I noticed, The defensivly upgraded Tower Guards, combined with their formation, and the lvl 5 leadership Boromir, caused my army to take very little damage from the Silverthorne Arrows being shoot at them.  While the Tower Guards were fighting, I used the Trebuchets to target enemy heroes, specifically Galadriel, because she is expensive and takes alot of damage from the Trebuchets.  After a while, both of us would go back to get more troops, and it repeated.

Now I understand why the Tower Guards were not taking much Damage.  However, my army, usually much smaller then his army, was able to survive volley after volley after volley of silverthorne arrows.  The damage they were taking was just surprisingly low.  I know thats someone is thinking that "Well because the Tower Guards were in their formation, why didnt the elves just hit and run?"  The reason for that is that if he ran away from my army, he would be leaving his Mirkwood outpost open, and it would not be a good idea to do that because I had Trebuchets.

It is hard for me to say that the damage Silverthrone Arrows do should be increased because this is just one game.  But its definately a possibility.  I also do agree that the Lothlorien mass-slayer, Legolas, was very ineffective in this match.  While I think he is very good, he was barely noticeable against the Tower Guards unless he used Arrow Wind. 

Many of the other points mentioned i have no comment on, due to the fact that I haven't played Lothlorien enough to know everything. 

Nevertheless, the match was fun regardless.  I think that, with my lower control of the map, and therefore lower economy, the Tower Guards I sent did a very good job, but perhaps too good. 

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #68 am: 2. Dez 2015, 14:33 »
Alright, I watched the replay (which took quite a while and , to be honest, got a bit boring at some point, but I'll come to that) and I don't really agree with the two of you. It's not really about what mistakes KryptiK made, but more about what you spend your money on.

First of all: Silverthorn. Lorien has the strongest archers in the game, because the silverthorn arrows are the best ranged upgrade in the game. Their damage boost is larger than fire arrows by quite a bit, and additionally they offer the arguably better damage type (MAGIC as opposed to FLAME). But since Edain 4.0 lowered the damage archers do (which I am still very, very glad about), they can't do everything. On top of that, the heavy armor upgrade lowers the received ranged damage by 35%. Combine that with leveled tower guards, their formation and leadership bonuses and archers suddenly can't do much. Which leads to my main point, your money spending.

As both of you said, the Gondor player used nothing but tower guards and catapults (Boromir isn't important for this). He had nothing but upgraded pikes as his army. But you only used archers and your own pikes to fight them, although both of those are not very effective in this scenario.
Why did you never get melee Galadhrim? As swordsmen, the do more damage against pikes and with the latest version of Edain they get a 50%(!) buff on top of that. You never got Beornings because you were afraid of Rohan. Well, that's teamgames for you. Fighting 1v2 isn't the basis to discuss balance though, and just as your enemies supported each other, your ally could have send some of his own tower guards over to protect your Beornings. And you still had your own palace guard. Four or five Beornings would have done wonders for you, they do very nasty things to tower guards.

Next you complained that you were helpless against catapults. Well, you were, because you didn't get any ents. The catapults stood in his base, protected by tower guard and lots of towers ready to shoot the crap out of your infantry. So why didn't you get ents? Because you were afraid of the fire killing the ents instantly.
The thing is, you could have had several ents before Gondor even got his first trebuchet. You got longbows and silverthorn while your army consisted of pikes only, you got three upgrades in the sanctuary, you were spamming heroes nonstop. Just one ent alone would have been enough to force your enemy into an unfavourable situation where he has to leave his base to attack your ent(s), and you can hit him hard. Not to mention that he never gets to build catapults when he can't get to raise the building (what's it called in english?).
Even in the very late game, where he had two or three upgraded trebuchets, ents could have done some work. Keep them back and fire at the tower guards. Either he steps forward with his catapults so you can take them out or he loses the tower guard and you can then kill his catapults with your army. Again, it's about creating a favourable situation for yourself. In the replay you fought quite a few "bad" battles (which is why it got boring, you never changed it up^^), which is something you can't really do with Lorien.

So yea, that's my take on this.  Of course, hindsight is 20/20, and you couldn't have known everything while playing the match. But still, you were waiting in front of his base and couldn't get in since you didn't have any siege weapons. What did you get? MOAR ARCHERS. xD



Some isolated points: Turning Grimbeorn into more of a mass slayer sounds good to me. At the moment he is more of a strong melee fighter, which is a bit meh. Maybe this could be improved a bit (and his bees are still doing no damage, right?).

Regarding spells: The army of the dead overpowers anything and everything, which is why you get the fuck out when you see it xD. Standing still and trying to outheal it will not work. Vingilot would easily overpower the Rohirrim though. I'm still a bit unsure about the Tears, since they can get too strong very quickly when combined with all the stuns Lorien has. I'd have to use the more to judge this.

Galadriel isn't especially weak against catapults, heroes in general are. Three upgraded trebuchets would make any hero run away.

CragLord

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #69 am: 2. Dez 2015, 16:11 »
One thing which comes to my mind about this is would Elk ridders do something useful in that situation with their "Elven Skill" passive ability which should pierce heavy armor? They were also more mobile archer unit for this situation.
Maybe one solution for similar situation could be new activation ability for Charas Galathon Guards. As elite (or hero unit, I always get confused between those two terms) units which is limited to 3 battalions, I think they deserve better activation ability then current one.
I mean, it is really "poor" that they got knock back with less damage as special ability, maybe as solution we can propose some ability about heavy armour pierce but in some great amount, because it will be activation ability with effect of attack limited in time duration. I think that could solve current problem in some way.

Also, I haven't got time to watch your replay, but from reading comment of 3 Grades Cousain, I agree that you should play 1v1, so you could be more objective in situation concerning units and countering of enemy units. As he already mentioned, maybe some swordsmen could do decent job, but you wasn't able to produce them because you played against Rohan in same time.

I agree about Grimbeorn, actually, I would like to see him in more mass slayer role, and I agree about current price, 2600 is maybe too much.
Also I am for buffing of damage of Valar's Tears, I have also feeling that damage isn't so great in general (concerning damage), for power which is tier 4 in powers menu. But again, it is just my opinion.

Regards,
Crag
« Letzte Änderung: 2. Dez 2015, 18:33 von CragLord »

Hamanathnath

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #70 am: 2. Dez 2015, 18:47 »
Again, I do not think that Silverthorne Arrows should be stronger because of 1 match where they were ineffective against Tower Guards.  I do agree that Kry could have made some better choices, namely getting ents before I got Fire Stones for my Trebuchets.  Im also curious on how well the Elk Riders would have done against the Tower Guards.  Ill try to test that out if I get the chance.   

There were some choices that he had to make due to the circumstances, such as he needed to make palace guards to protect his army incase my Rohan ally come with his cavalry army. 

Also, I don't think Beornings would have helped as much as you think.  While I agree that Beornings would do a lot to the Tower Guards, remember that Boromir is part of that army.  And Boromir can knock down Beornings, which would limit their use unless there were a very large amount of them.

I think there needs to be further testing, in a 1v1 situation if possible, before I can say that something needs to be changed.  Ill try to look into it whenever I can. 

Also, I think Tears is good if you have the spell that stuns units (Can't remember its name), but only if you have the stun spell.  It has a long delay before the spell starts doing damage, giving your enemy time to run away, and it has knockback, which is good in theory, but it also means that the units that are knocked back have a chance of dodging the rest of the spell.  With the stun spell however, you are pretty much guarenteed to hit, and it does more damage because the units aren't flying around.  Also, maybe ive been lucky with this, but the stun spell usually end right before the last Tear, knocking them back at the perfect time.  Maybe it does need more damage, but I don't want it to become over powered becuase of the Stun Spell, because as far as I know, there is no way to become immune to the Stun Spell.  I do recommend that Tear's delay at the start should be shortened, because It should not have to rely on another spell to be good.



Elite KryPtik

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #71 am: 3. Dez 2015, 00:02 »
In terms of using melee Galadhrim, if I recall correctly the very first battle I had where I used several battalions of them, I had them on melee mode, and they got slaughtered. They don't have the armor to hold up in prolonged melee. That's why I switched to using Palace Guards to hold the enemy in melee while the Galadhrim dealt damage with their bow.

In terms of the Ents, I agree they could perhaps have been useful. However, the route of getting heroes and Silverthorns is much more dependable in more situations, Ents are very specialized(and expensive). I had no way of knowing he was going to start getting trebuchets, and once they were out it was pointless to get ents in my view. Also, ents don't do all that much damage to upgraded Tower Guards in formation with their rock throw, and its suicide to send them in melee, so they wouldn't have helped all that much with that situation either. The only way they would have been useful would have been if I spammed out like 10 of them, which I did not have the economy to do.

I completely disagree about Beornings, upgraded tower guards wreck them, and Boromir also has his knockback. In regards to the Caras Galadhon Guardians, their activation ability actually doesn't work at all. I think their damage is a little low, but their health and armor are excellent to make up for that, so I'm fine with them as they are, except that their ability needs to be fixed. Also, most heroic battalions have 2 abilities, so maybe they could have a secondary ability unlocked at level 7, which is armor piercing. That would be pretty awesome.

Overall though, are we really not going to discuss how he held off a bigger army, which had many more heroes than his, with a smaller army and less money? Something is simply not right there, which goes back to my opinion that something isn't quite right about Lothlorien's economy. Even with the majority of map control in our teams favor, they were able to hold me back. Now some of this can be attributed to my teammate, who is rather new to the game, but once we got to late game where it was just me vs him, he was still holding me off by himself. When your army is as big as mine was and has that many heroes, I would expect it to at least be able to defeat the enemy army efficiently, even if they cannot destroy the base afterwards.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #72 am: 3. Dez 2015, 00:12 »
I finally watched the replays myself and I agree with what Die bucklige Verwandschaft said. I think this was a classic example of tunnel vision, but probably most because of Rohan's cavalry.
 Your opponent was ''spamming'' Tower Guards, which still constitute of the Spearmen class and are still countered by any form of swords. I don't think I saw even a single Mirkwood Swordsmen or Galadhrim with swords in your roster 30-40+ minutes well into the game (and after I stopped watching) after you lost all your Lorien Swordsmen. I'm not really sure what you were trying to accomplish with those frontal assaults with Pikes...Were you trying to ''out-armour'' Gondor with Lothlorien? Because that is what it looked like to me, and that is the kind of game Gondor will almost always win against Lothlorien.
Tower Guards, are defensive units supposed to suck up damage, and that is their main strength. The spam of a specific unit can only endure if the correct counter is not employed. You could also, as has been pointed out before me, had followed the example of your adversary and purchased a couple of Ents and have them fire away at the enemy from behind your lines, just like he did with the Trebuchets.
Frankly, I don't think those Silverthorns were underperforming at all. Yes they are expensive, but they are not supposed to counter Heavy Armour, Wall Formation Tower Guards, but function like the support to make the job of the upgraded swordsmen, that were missing in-game, easier. I think that already a couple of upgraded Mirkwood swordsmen, which were quite cheap with your in-game composition would have done wonders, and Galadhrim with Master Blades perhaps even better :)

However, a couple of times you were unfortunately getting doubled. In such a situation balance is a very difficult thing to assess.

Finally, I agree about Grimbeorn. The issue of the Eagles/Flying Units against siege (or buildings) also still remains. Perhaps some kind of anti-cavalry formation would be worthy of testing for the Palace Guards indeed.

These were just a couple of thoughts I had as an observer, so as always, it's easy to say things in hindsight and in-game it often turns out differently, but I hope they might aid you in improving your game with Lothlorien even further!

Kind regards.

« Letzte Änderung: 3. Dez 2015, 00:20 von Odysseus »
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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #73 am: 3. Dez 2015, 00:29 »
I never thought about using Mirkwood Swordsmen, I'll have to try them in the future, that formation of theirs may have helped a lot. I still completely disagree about Ents, test it yourself and see how little damage they do, with rock throw, to Tower Guards with heavy armor in formation. However I still believe my point is valid, I had a much bigger army with more heroes, and he was still beating me back with around 800 command points.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Lothlórien Balance Discussion
« Antwort #74 am: 3. Dez 2015, 02:30 »
They could perhaps use some tweaking in their ranged damage against infantry. Maybe the Lord of Gifts can elaborate on this with some statistics? :P
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