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Autor Thema: Ents  (Gelesen 17782 mal)

The_Necromancer0

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Ents
« am: 12. Nov 2015, 08:52 »
I made this it's own thread because since it's been discussed a lot so it would be nice if we kept it all here to make sure that it's easy to see where the argument is at.

The general agreement is that Ents are too weak. I've tested Ents both with and against them and I have to say that I agree, it becomes way too easy late game to take an Ent down before it reaches anything worthwhile destroying. I've got a couple suggestions for that, which I will classify according to what I think of them

1.Most Boring But Probably Most Effective
Stat boost. While this really doesn't add anything unique to the game system it is probably the most effective way to make the Ents stronger. A simple defense boost along with maybe a bigger resistance to anything that's not fire could help. This can be further tweaked easily without taking out anything.

2. Quite Interesting But Doesn't Help Much
BFME1 Entmoot. The thing that I really liked about the BFME 1 Entmoot is that it wasn't being "built" it was already ready and the "build" time was actually a bunch of Ents debating whether or not to go to war.
The really unique detail though was that if the Entmoot was attacked during that time the Ents would immediately cease to debate and decide to attack. You could get an shortened build time on your Entmoot and in addition, whether or not it was attacked, you got 4 ent on a timer.
While this solution doesn't help much with the overall weakness of the Ents, it's really something that I found great about BFME1 and I think it would be worthwhile to add to the mod.
EDIT: Impossible due to game mechanics

3. Helps And Is Interesting But No Very Unique
The Last March of The Ents (bis). While this is already being used for Rohan I do think it would be the best way to allow a temp boost of all Ents during a rush. It can be named something else like Entish Rage or something. Simply enough it's an ability for Treebeard (he's got one palantir spot left) in which the Ent gain a temporary resistance to all type of weapons, and a speed increase similar to when they are in rage.

4. Also Unique But Not Very Useful
Ent Draught, it could be used as either a very large or map-wide Ent heal ability. Either it can be a one time thing or with a very long cooldown depending on what the Team feels is more appropriate. This would doze any fire and restore Ents in range to full health along with a small temporary armor boost. While this doesn't fix the problem of the individual Ent weakness it could be used to support Ents during a rush.

5. From Crimson King
Huorn Sentry
750 gold
Places two Huorn sentries that patrol the periphery of the Entmoot. Huorns are able to damage nearby enemy units but cannot stray too far from their roots. Huorns are able to stealth automatically when not engaging in combat.
[reasoning]Huorns are an interesting and often overlooked "community" in Fangorn. Their violent nature contrasts with their daily tree-like behaviour. They are the "sentries" of Fangorn, killing any that dare trespass with the Ents' approval. It is said they are able to cloak in shadow, which I thought would be a neat addition in the form of stealth. If they are killed the respawning time should be unusually long as well.


Opinions so far

Well those are my various suggestions for the Ent problem. Fee free to comment and add your own suggestions  xD

____________________________________________________________________

Huorn Sentry Proposal

« Letzte Änderung: 25. Nov 2015, 20:46 von The_Necromancer0 »
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Ealendril der Dunkle

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #1 am: 12. Nov 2015, 10:45 »
Zitat
BFME1 Entmoot. The thing that I really liked about the BFME 1 Entmoot is that it wasn't being "built" it was already ready and the "build" time was actually a bunch of Ents debating whether or not to go to war.

The really unique detail though was that if the Entmoot was attacked during that time the Ents would immediately cease to debate and decide to attack. You could get an shortened build time on your Entmoot and in addition, whether or not it was attacked, you got 4 ent on a timer.

While this solution doesn't help much with the overall weakness of the Ents, it's really something that I found great about BFME1 and I think it would be worthwhile to add to the mod.
We've already tried to implement this system, but it didnt worked. There are some missing definitions in BfmeII, so it would work only with bugs.

Sir_Stig

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #2 am: 12. Nov 2015, 20:03 »
The ent heal might be good, a full heal might be a bit much but at least something that puts out fire and gives half health back, along with maybe a short fire invulnerability could be interesting.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #3 am: 12. Nov 2015, 22:00 »
I will post on the OP the opinions of people to give newcomers a feel of the debate, works like a poll except you're forced to debate and discuss.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #4 am: 13. Nov 2015, 19:32 »
I agree it should be ability oriented, that way Ents could still be killable when Treebeard is not leading them. Additionally, you've forgotten about Quickbeam. We could even potentially have both of these, the Last March of the Ents for Treebeard and Ent Draught for Quickbeam, to increase both of their usage. I would not say that this is overpowered due to how expensive ents are, being able to give a map-wide stat boost and heal is a perfect idea.

Also, any changes made to the Lothlorien Ents also need to be added to Rohans summon, which is currently far too weak.
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Odysseus

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #5 am: 13. Nov 2015, 21:56 »
I think the current foremost problem is the fact that Ents take more damage from arrows than other siege weapons, especially for their price. I'd say we tweak that first, try it, and then re-evaluate.
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bookworm1138

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #6 am: 15. Nov 2015, 03:32 »
on the Brief Lothlorien Suggestions page, Crimson King suggested a Huorn upgrade for the Entmoot


and CragLord said that the topic should be moved here


And I just had a brainstorming thought and wanted to put it down before it disappeared. As far as animations go, what about the Spider Rider from standard BfME2? It moves like a spider and has the upper-limb movements of the rider, which can (hopefully?) translate to the movement of roots for walking/crawling and branches for fighting (forgot if the Spider Riders were melee or not)
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The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #7 am: 15. Nov 2015, 05:16 »
I've edited the post with the latest opinions, copied Crimson King's Ent Huorn posts onto the OP and gathered the opinions for the Brief suggestion thread. As far as the Huorn I think the Team could use the trees from Narnia 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDGLZbB7aI
As far as the animation goes the spider riders sound like a good idea (yes they're mele). For the sounds Old Man willow should do it, if not somebody can just go outside and like record a tree or something  xD
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #8 am: 15. Nov 2015, 18:42 »
I agree with you bookworm, your suggestions about Huorn moving animation is pretty nice. :)
Of course, Huorns could have that animations and their speed should be reduced in comparison with spiders. :P :)
I hope someone from team will explain is this possible. :)
Also concerning attack, animations about attack will be pretty interesting to suggest or to create, because Hourns mainly are using roots for damaging something I presume.
Huorns are wild and they were controled by Ents. They will damage or kill anyone. Maybe we should also take this into consideration in future suggestions about them. :)
I propose that those Huorns senturies will attack anyone who comes near entmoot, but in presence of ents they will attack enemies. :) I just wanted to suggest this, but it is maybe too much. xD
Here is some of pictures of Huorns, maybe we could use them in game or for motivation in this suggestion:



Also concerning Huorns, I will also like to see Old Man Willow in game. For people who don't know about it: Link.
Also look of this hourn, which could be used for motivation or game implementation:

I came to idea to suggest this Hourn upgrade will be something we need to research in entmoot (I know you all meant on this ofc), and after upgrade is finished, two Huorns are created on two building plots around entmoot (something similar as vanila ent ugrade at elven fortress).
After Hourns are upgraded, we should be able to choose two modes (which are switchable) in their palantir.
First mode will be Patrol mode:
When enemies comes near, Hourns leaves their plots and start fighting and damaging enemies (We need to suggest some animations for this attack state). They will have patrol area.
Second mood is Rooted mode:
They will be in their plots and not able to move, but they will be able to activate their roots and do some units slow area effect and (or) unit poision area damage (which is much smaller damage in comparison with damage they do in patrol mod but this is area effect). Something similar as Radagast Thorn Bush. Or some area stun effect on units or some effect which mixed in smaller proportions those above...
If for example Old Man Willow get integrated as one of those Huorns, second mode for this huorn should be named Sleepy spell, and it will have stun area effect on units ( Old Man Willow casts a spell on enemies causing them to feel sleepy). This is just correlated with lore, there was situation when this Willow effected hobbits and tried later to kill Merry and Pipin. Later Tom Bombardil saved them. I think this is presented in EE version of Two Towers in scene when Merry and Pipin get stucked between roots of huorn and they Treebeard came and save them.

Also concerning Ents, what you guys think, should we suggest some new Willow tree as regular unit? Or Ent hero? I really find this ent look unique.

I really find this propal of huorns or ents change important. Simply they are separate and unique race in Arda and they need good polishing in game. :)

What do you think about this?

P.S. Concering sounds for Hourns, don't worry, leave that to me. I will find pack for them if I already don't have one. :)
All we need is to make this proposal more polished and get some answer from team about this. :) Sounds are not problem, believe me. :)

Kind Regards,
Crag
 
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Nov 2015, 20:12 von CragLord »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #9 am: 15. Nov 2015, 22:00 »
Wow, lots of stuff for everybody to think about. As always your proposals are solid and looking good well done CragLord  (**). I've read through it and I agree with most of but I was thinking for the Huorns to be implemented with Old Man Willow. I was thinking of when you purchase it a battalion composed of 2 Huorns and Old Man Willow will appear much in a manner like Shagrats ability and protect the Entmoot, you can select them to activate abilities or change stances but you can't make them move, they will patrol and attack enemies on their own (is that possible?)

Patrol mode could be aggressive stance, rooted mode could be defensive stance and the regular stance could be rooted but attacking with roots like a ranged attack. For the research I was thinking around 1k considering it's quite a mighty defense that is set up. I can probaly cook up a couple icon for the upgrade, the abilities and the various stances, just gimme a day or two.

As far as the whole "killing anyone that come nearby" I believe the real trouble will be how to balance it. You suggested that whenever Ents are nearby they are under control and attack only enemies. I feel that might though be a waste as it would require the player to always have an Ent nearby, especially if the Huorns have a big range as they might attack other nearby buildings. May be buy it as a further upgrade? Buying the huorn upgrade would unlock taming of the huorn of something like that which would cause the Huorns to only attack ennemies.

But anyway stuff to think about
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #10 am: 16. Nov 2015, 00:22 »
Thank you.  :)
I like this proposal, it has some fine lore facts within (I meant on basic proposal not on my suggestions), and I really like Ents and hourns. They are separate race and they deserve more polishing in my opinion, so I think this is good start in hope of changing something.
Oh sorry, I haven't understand you in good way.
It is nice slave system I think ( recently Ea implemented Nori&Dori slave system, and there is other similar systems in game, Tom, Bert, and William for Misty Mountains, Shargat/Gorbag etc). I don't know is this proposal of your possible, that answer will give you someone from ET. :) Personally I hope it is possible, because it will be lore accurate and nice in same time. But your proposal about stances is unique I think. :)
We could combine those of ability proposals with stances, and I think we could cook up something nice. :) :p
I could also help you with graphics, if I get some time I could also make something. But before that we should make final concept, graphics goes at the end (I think xD), when we suggest full descriptions about stances and abilities, and we know what we want on graphics (palantir buttons). :) Something similar we are doing in BattleWagon topic, Dain and I and others have suggested almost everything about new WarChariot look and its abilities, and now we are making and finding material for those palantir buttons look. :) And then we will have final proposal. ;)

Now one small advise, when you suggesting something, always cost of units or upgrade leave out suggestion. It is balance related thing, and it should be discussed at the end.  From my experience cost suggestions just complicate things and discussion in general. We should leave that for the end. ;)

I just give info from lore so we could think also about it.
Personally I think it is too much, as I have said in my previous comment. :)
About that as upgrade, I think it will complicate things either way. xD Maybe is the best to forget about it...

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Nov 2015, 02:50 von CragLord »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #11 am: 16. Nov 2015, 12:17 »
Here are the descriptions as I see them for stances and ability, let's use that as the base towards a final concept for the Huorns upgrade.

1. Stances
a. Defensive Stance
The Huorns gather around the Entmoot and "root" themselves (become immobile) from that point on they give out a large poison aura (similar to Dol Goldur but on a larger area). This improves their defense greatly but their attack is heavily diminished. (Just spit balling here: we could use some sort of mount/dismount mechanics)

b.Normal Stance
The Huorns patrol around the Entmoot but don't leave it. When they only attack if attacked (could fix the whole attack all units imbalance). They use roots that they use to hit enemies at a range (archer range) by travelling underground.

c. Aggressive Stance
The Huorns attack all units that come within range of the Entmoot (has to be Entmoot). They go up to the enemy and kill the battalion.  They have to behave like creeps even though that would also reduce their power. Aggressive Stance should grant them a 50% attack boost but no defense nerf.

2. Abilities
a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

Here's the way I see the basis. Lets finalize the abilities quickly and move one to the sounds and images of the Hourns.

Here is the Palantir I was thinking of:

1. Defensive Stance
2.Normal Stance
3.Aggressive Stance
4. Ent Draught
5. Old Man Willow's Song
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Nov 2015, 12:25 von The_Necromancer0 »
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #12 am: 16. Nov 2015, 15:10 »
It seem very nice so far.
I like stances suggestion.
Concerning sounds, don't worry, I will dig up something. But sounds also should come at the end, if we get positive answer from team. :)
I like those pictures for Ent Draught and Old Man Willow's Song (DreadLord sleep :P).They are very fitting. :) I don't like current palantir buttons for stances. If we are suggesting some unique stance system for those huorns, then we should find more appropriate graphics for those stances. I managed to find something and I think it is more fitting and naturally correlated with this unit:
For Defensive Stance I suggest this one:

It is correlated with roots and poision damage hourn does in this stance.

For Normal Stance I have found this one:

Standard tree for standard stance. :)

And for Aggressive Stance I have found this one:

Attacking roots, I think this fits 100% to nature of stance. :)

I think those graphics are much more fitting. :)
And now we can, start thinking about unit look, spider model change etc.
What do you think about this? :)

If you can, change this into game and post picture like you did in your previous comment. I would like to see how it looks in game. :)

P.S. Some random thought:
Also concerning defensive stance, maybe we could suggest visual effect on area around hourns. When they take their defensive stand, on terain area around them some roots spikes appear. Those spikes do that poision damage. In nature this exist in mangrove forest:

Regards,
Crag
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Nov 2015, 15:59 von CragLord »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #13 am: 16. Nov 2015, 17:09 »
Zitat
(DreadLord sleep :P)
Busted  :D

I've edited the image, here:


I'll give some though to the whole animation and skin, I liked the idea of using tree skins you suggested a couple posts back.
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #14 am: 16. Nov 2015, 22:44 »
Yes, I played WC3 for a long time, earlier I knew every single shortcut in game, but that was long time ago. :P I think that sleep Dread Lord ability fits 100% for Old Man Willow song. :)
Those graphics looks really nice in game. :)
Maybe you made mistake by their placement in that picture, but that was irrelevant for purpose of visual change. :)
Also maybe we should remove that green circle which exist around them, but that is easy task so we will remove that for final concept. :)

I am waiting for your proposal about those skins and animation, currently I am out of ideas (beside those already mentioned).

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Nov 2015, 22:50 von CragLord »