Ents

[The_Necromancer0]

I made this it's own thread because since it's been discussed a lot so it would be nice if we kept it all here to make sure that it's easy to see where the argument is at.

The general agreement is that Ents are too weak. I've tested Ents both with and against them and I have to say that I agree, it becomes way too easy late game to take an Ent down before it reaches anything worthwhile destroying. I've got a couple suggestions for that, which I will classify according to what I think of them

1.Most Boring But Probably Most Effective
Stat boost. While this really doesn't add anything unique to the game system it is probably the most effective way to make the Ents stronger. A simple defense boost along with maybe a bigger resistance to anything that's not fire could help. This can be further tweaked easily without taking out anything.

2. Quite Interesting But Doesn't Help Much
BFME1 Entmoot. The thing that I really liked about the BFME 1 Entmoot is that it wasn't being "built" it was already ready and the "build" time was actually a bunch of Ents debating whether or not to go to war.

The really unique detail though was that if the Entmoot was attacked during that time the Ents would immediately cease to debate and decide to attack. You could get an shortened build time on your Entmoot and in addition, whether or not it was attacked, you got 4 ent on a timer.
While this solution doesn't help much with the overall weakness of the Ents, it's really something that I found great about BFME1 and I think it would be worthwhile to add to the mod.
EDIT: Impossible due to game mechanics

3. Helps And Is Interesting But No Very Unique
The Last March of The Ents (bis). While this is already being used for Rohan I do think it would be the best way to allow a temp boost of all Ents during a rush. It can be named something else like Entish Rage or something. Simply enough it's an ability for Treebeard (he's got one palantir spot left) in which the Ent gain a temporary resistance to all type of weapons, and a speed increase similar to when they are in rage.

4. Also Unique But Not Very Useful
Ent Draught, it could be used as either a very large or map-wide Ent heal ability. Either it can be a one time thing or with a very long cooldown depending on what the Team feels is more appropriate. This would doze any fire and restore Ents in range to full health along with a small temporary armor boost. While this doesn't fix the problem of the individual Ent weakness it could be used to support Ents during a rush.

5. From Crimson King
Huorn Sentry
750 gold
Places two Huorn sentries that patrol the periphery of the Entmoot. Huorns are able to damage nearby enemy units but cannot stray too far from their roots. Huorns are able to stealth automatically when not engaging in combat.
[reasoning]Huorns are an interesting and often overlooked "community" in Fangorn. Their violent nature contrasts with their daily tree-like behaviour. They are the "sentries" of Fangorn, killing any that dare trespass with the Ents' approval. It is said they are able to cloak in shadow, which I thought would be a neat addition in the form of stealth. If they are killed the respawning time should be unusually long as well.


Opinions so far

Sir Stig #4:
-put out fire
-+1/2 health
-temp invulnerability

Elite KryPtik #4 & #3:
-quickbeam: ent draught
-treebeard: temp boost

Odysseus #1
-arrow resistance

Crimson King #4 & #5
-Draught: affects all units not just ents

Khamul Der Sehende #5
-

WarOfTheRingVeteran #5
-make Huorns creep so they attack all non-ent

CragLord #5
-

Well those are my various suggestions for the Ent problem. Fee free to comment and add your own suggestions 

____________________________________________________________________

Huorn Sentry Proposal

1.Abilities & Stances

Huorns would be protecting the Entmoot. They would have three different stances that allow them to impact differently the gameplay according to the player's strategy:

1. Stances
a. Defensive Stance
The Huorns gather around the Entmoot and "root" themselves (become immobile) from that point on they give out a large poison aura (similar to Dol Goldur but on a larger area). This improves their defense greatly but their attack is heavily diminished. The animation could be little roots coming out of the ground

b.Normal Stance
The Huorns patrol around the Entmoot but don't leave it. When they only attack if attacked (could fix the whole attack all units imbalance). They use roots that they use to hit enemies at a range (archer range) by travelling underground.

c. Aggressive Stance
The Huorns attack all units that come within range of the Entmoot (has to be Entmoot). They go up to the enemy and kill the battalion.  They have to behave like creeps even though that would also reduce their power. Aggressive Stance should grant them a 50% attack boost but no defense nerf.

They would also have the following abilities to incorporate Old Man Willow as the "leader" of the Huorn patrol.

2. Abilities
a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

The Stances would use those images:

For Defensive Stance I suggest this one:

It is correlated with roots and poision damage hourn does in this stance.

For Normal Stance I have found this one:

Standard tree for standard stance.

And for Aggressive Stance I have found this one:

Attacking roots, I think this fits 100% to nature of stance.

The Palantir would be the looking something like this (To CragLord: I've fixed it):

1. Defensive Stance
2.Normal Stance
3.Aggressive Stance
4. Ent Draught
5. Old Man Willow's Song

2.Animations and Skin

We were thinking of basing the animation off the spider attack but with an tree skin as seen below:

3.Sounds

CragLord has stated that he will "dig up something" for the sounds when the time comes, so no worries on that side.

4.Remaining Question/Issues
a.Should Huorns attack all units (allies and enemies) to be more lore accurate?
b.Is the incorporation of Old Man Willow's song not unique enough?

I will edit this as need be.

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

BFME1 Entmoot. The thing that I really liked about the BFME 1 Entmoot is that it wasn't being "built" it was already ready and the "build" time was actually a bunch of Ents debating whether or not to go to war.

The really unique detail though was that if the Entmoot was attacked during that time the Ents would immediately cease to debate and decide to attack. You could get an shortened build time on your Entmoot and in addition, whether or not it was attacked, you got 4 ent on a timer.

While this solution doesn't help much with the overall weakness of the Ents, it's really something that I found great about BFME1 and I think it would be worthwhile to add to the mod.

We've already tried to implement this system, but it didnt worked. There are some missing definitions in BfmeII, so it would work only with bugs.

[Sir_Stig]

The ent heal might be good, a full heal might be a bit much but at least something that puts out fire and gives half health back, along with maybe a short fire invulnerability could be interesting.

[The_Necromancer0]

I will post on the OP the opinions of people to give newcomers a feel of the debate, works like a poll except you're forced to debate and discuss.

[Elite KryPtik]

I agree it should be ability oriented, that way Ents could still be killable when Treebeard is not leading them. Additionally, you've forgotten about Quickbeam. We could even potentially have both of these, the Last March of the Ents for Treebeard and Ent Draught for Quickbeam, to increase both of their usage. I would not say that this is overpowered due to how expensive ents are, being able to give a map-wide stat boost and heal is a perfect idea.

Also, any changes made to the Lothlorien Ents also need to be added to Rohans summon, which is currently far too weak.

[Odysseus]

I think the current foremost problem is the fact that Ents take more damage from arrows than other siege weapons, especially for their price. I'd say we tweak that first, try it, and then re-evaluate.

[bookworm1138]

on the Brief Lothlorien Suggestions page, Crimson King suggested a Huorn upgrade for the Entmoot

Huorn Sentry
750 gold
Places two Huorn sentries that patrol the periphery of the Entmoot. Huorns are able to damage nearby enemy units but cannot stray too far from their roots. Huorns are able to stealth automatically when not engaging in combat.
[reasoning]Huorns are an interesting and often overlooked "community" in Fangorn. Their violent nature contrasts with their daily tree-like behaviour. They are the "sentries" of Fangorn, killing any that dare trespass with the Ents' approval. It is said they are able to cloak in shadow, which I thought would be a neat addition in the form of stealth. If they are killed the respawning time should be unusually long as well.

and CragLord said that the topic should be moved here

I also like idea about huorns, but we need to suggest how they will looks, also to take into consideration animation for this unit etc. It is interesting idea, but we need much more to develop in concept terms if we want to take this serious. I think it is best to move those entmoot/huorns suggestions/comments into Ent topic. Simply because in that situation we will have everything ent related in one place.

And I just had a brainstorming thought and wanted to put it down before it disappeared. As far as animations go, what about the Spider Rider from standard BfME2? It moves like a spider and has the upper-limb movements of the rider, which can (hopefully?) translate to the movement of roots for walking/crawling and branches for fighting (forgot if the Spider Riders were melee or not)

[The_Necromancer0]

I've edited the post with the latest opinions, copied Crimson King's Ent Huorn posts onto the OP and gathered the opinions for the Brief suggestion thread. As far as the Huorn I think the Team could use the trees from Narnia 2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLDGLZbB7aI
As far as the animation goes the spider riders sound like a good idea (yes they're mele). For the sounds Old Man willow should do it, if not somebody can just go outside and like record a tree or something 

[CragLord]

I agree with you bookworm, your suggestions about Huorn moving animation is pretty nice.
Of course, Huorns could have that animations and their speed should be reduced in comparison with spiders.
I hope someone from team will explain is this possible.
Also concerning attack, animations about attack will be pretty interesting to suggest or to create, because Hourns mainly are using roots for damaging something I presume.
Huorns are wild and they were controled by Ents. They will damage or kill anyone. Maybe we should also take this into consideration in future suggestions about them.
I propose that those Huorns senturies will attack anyone who comes near entmoot, but in presence of ents they will attack enemies. I just wanted to suggest this, but it is maybe too much.
Here is some of pictures of Huorns, maybe we could use them in game or for motivation in this suggestion:

Also concerning Huorns, I will also like to see Old Man Willow in game. For people who don't know about it: Link.
Also look of this hourn, which could be used for motivation or game implementation:

I came to idea to suggest this Hourn upgrade will be something we need to research in entmoot (I know you all meant on this ofc), and after upgrade is finished, two Huorns are created on two building plots around entmoot (something similar as vanila ent ugrade at elven fortress).
After Hourns are upgraded, we should be able to choose two modes (which are switchable) in their palantir.
First mode will be Patrol mode:
When enemies comes near, Hourns leaves their plots and start fighting and damaging enemies (We need to suggest some animations for this attack state). They will have patrol area.
Second mood is Rooted mode:
They will be in their plots and not able to move, but they will be able to activate their roots and do some units slow area effect and (or) unit poision area damage (which is much smaller damage in comparison with damage they do in patrol mod but this is area effect). Something similar as Radagast Thorn Bush. Or some area stun effect on units or some effect which mixed in smaller proportions those above...
If for example Old Man Willow get integrated as one of those Huorns, second mode for this huorn should be named Sleepy spell, and it will have stun area effect on units ( Old Man Willow casts a spell on enemies causing them to feel sleepy). This is just correlated with lore, there was situation when this Willow effected hobbits and tried later to kill Merry and Pipin. Later Tom Bombardil saved them. I think this is presented in EE version of Two Towers in scene when Merry and Pipin get stucked between roots of huorn and they Treebeard came and save them.

Also concerning Ents, what you guys think, should we suggest some new Willow tree as regular unit? Or Ent hero? I really find this ent look unique.

I really find this propal of huorns or ents change important. Simply they are separate and unique race in Arda and they need good polishing in game.

What do you think about this?

P.S. Concering sounds for Hourns, don't worry, leave that to me. I will find pack for them if I already don't have one.
All we need is to make this proposal more polished and get some answer from team about this. Sounds are not problem, believe me.

Kind Regards,
Crag
 

[The_Necromancer0]

Wow, lots of stuff for everybody to think about. As always your proposals are solid and looking good well done CragLord  . I've read through it and I agree with most of but I was thinking for the Huorns to be implemented with Old Man Willow. I was thinking of when you purchase it a battalion composed of 2 Huorns and Old Man Willow will appear much in a manner like Shagrats ability and protect the Entmoot, you can select them to activate abilities or change stances but you can't make them move, they will patrol and attack enemies on their own (is that possible?)

Patrol mode could be aggressive stance, rooted mode could be defensive stance and the regular stance could be rooted but attacking with roots like a ranged attack. For the research I was thinking around 1k considering it's quite a mighty defense that is set up. I can probaly cook up a couple icon for the upgrade, the abilities and the various stances, just gimme a day or two.

As far as the whole "killing anyone that come nearby" I believe the real trouble will be how to balance it. You suggested that whenever Ents are nearby they are under control and attack only enemies. I feel that might though be a waste as it would require the player to always have an Ent nearby, especially if the Huorns have a big range as they might attack other nearby buildings. May be buy it as a further upgrade? Buying the huorn upgrade would unlock taming of the huorn of something like that which would cause the Huorns to only attack ennemies.

But anyway stuff to think about

[CragLord]

Wow, lots of stuff for everybody to think about. As always your proposals are solid and looking good well done CragLord  .

Thank you. 
I like this proposal, it has some fine lore facts within (I meant on basic proposal not on my suggestions), and I really like Ents and hourns. They are separate race and they deserve more polishing in my opinion, so I think this is good start in hope of changing something.

I was thinking of when you purchase it a battalion composed of 2 Huorns and Old Man Willow will appear much in a manner like Shagrats ability and protect the Entmoot, you can select them to activate abilities or change stances but you can't make them move, they will patrol and attack enemies on their own (is that possible?)

Oh sorry, I haven't understand you in good way.
It is nice slave system I think ( recently Ea implemented Nori&Dori slave system, and there is other similar systems in game, Tom, Bert, and William for Misty Mountains, Shargat/Gorbag etc). I don't know is this proposal of your possible, that answer will give you someone from ET. Personally I hope it is possible, because it will be lore accurate and nice in same time. But your proposal about stances is unique I think.
We could combine those of ability proposals with stances, and I think we could cook up something nice. :p
I could also help you with graphics, if I get some time I could also make something. But before that we should make final concept, graphics goes at the end (I think ), when we suggest full descriptions about stances and abilities, and we know what we want on graphics (palantir buttons). Something similar we are doing in BattleWagon topic, Dain and I and others have suggested almost everything about new WarChariot look and its abilities, and now we are making and finding material for those palantir buttons look. And then we will have final proposal.

Now one small advise, when you suggesting something, always cost of units or upgrade leave out suggestion. It is balance related thing, and it should be discussed at the end.  From my experience cost suggestions just complicate things and discussion in general. We should leave that for the end.

As far as the whole "killing anyone that come nearby" I believe the real trouble will be how to balance it. You suggested that whenever Ents are nearby they are under control and attack only enemies. I feel that might though be a waste as it would require the player to always have an Ent nearby, especially if the Huorns have a big range as they might attack other nearby buildings. May be buy it as a further upgrade? Buying the huorn upgrade would unlock taming of the huorn of something like that which would cause the Huorns to only attack ennemies.

I just give info from lore so we could think also about it.
Personally I think it is too much, as I have said in my previous comment.
About that as upgrade, I think it will complicate things either way. Maybe is the best to forget about it...

Regards,
CragLord

[The_Necromancer0]

Here are the descriptions as I see them for stances and ability, let's use that as the base towards a final concept for the Huorns upgrade.

1. Stances
a. Defensive Stance
The Huorns gather around the Entmoot and "root" themselves (become immobile) from that point on they give out a large poison aura (similar to Dol Goldur but on a larger area). This improves their defense greatly but their attack is heavily diminished. (Just spit balling here: we could use some sort of mount/dismount mechanics)

b.Normal Stance
The Huorns patrol around the Entmoot but don't leave it. When they only attack if attacked (could fix the whole attack all units imbalance). They use roots that they use to hit enemies at a range (archer range) by travelling underground.

c. Aggressive Stance
The Huorns attack all units that come within range of the Entmoot (has to be Entmoot). They go up to the enemy and kill the battalion.  They have to behave like creeps even though that would also reduce their power. Aggressive Stance should grant them a 50% attack boost but no defense nerf.

2. Abilities
a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

Here's the way I see the basis. Lets finalize the abilities quickly and move one to the sounds and images of the Hourns.

Here is the Palantir I was thinking of:

1. Defensive Stance
2.Normal Stance
3.Aggressive Stance
4. Ent Draught
5. Old Man Willow's Song

[CragLord]

It seem very nice so far.
I like stances suggestion.
Concerning sounds, don't worry, I will dig up something. But sounds also should come at the end, if we get positive answer from team.
I like those pictures for Ent Draught and Old Man Willow's Song (DreadLord sleep ).They are very fitting. I don't like current palantir buttons for stances. If we are suggesting some unique stance system for those huorns, then we should find more appropriate graphics for those stances. I managed to find something and I think it is more fitting and naturally correlated with this unit:
For Defensive Stance I suggest this one:

It is correlated with roots and poision damage hourn does in this stance.

For Normal Stance I have found this one:

Standard tree for standard stance.

And for Aggressive Stance I have found this one:

Attacking roots, I think this fits 100% to nature of stance.

I think those graphics are much more fitting.
And now we can, start thinking about unit look, spider model change etc.
What do you think about this?

If you can, change this into game and post picture like you did in your previous comment. I would like to see how it looks in game.

P.S. Some random thought:
Also concerning defensive stance, maybe we could suggest visual effect on area around hourns. When they take their defensive stand, on terain area around them some roots spikes appear. Those spikes do that poision damage. In nature this exist in mangrove forest:

Regards,
Crag

[The_Necromancer0]

(DreadLord sleep )

Busted 

I've edited the image, here:


I'll give some though to the whole animation and skin, I liked the idea of using tree skins you suggested a couple posts back.

[CragLord]

Yes, I played WC3 for a long time, earlier I knew every single shortcut in game, but that was long time ago. I think that sleep Dread Lord ability fits 100% for Old Man Willow song.
Those graphics looks really nice in game.
Maybe you made mistake by their placement in that picture, but that was irrelevant for purpose of visual change.
Also maybe we should remove that green circle which exist around them, but that is easy task so we will remove that for final concept.

I am waiting for your proposal about those skins and animation, currently I am out of ideas (beside those already mentioned).

Regards,
CragLord

[bookworm1138]

Yes, I played WC3 for a long time, earlier I knew every single shortcut in game, but that was long time ago. I think that sleep Dread Lord ability fits 100% for Old Man Willow song.

I would probably mix that with the sound effects of the Huorn from War of the Ring, since the spooky sleep ability sounds a bit too "horrific" and not "natural". Like I'm thinking like the sound of creaking branches with that subtle, scary howl added to it.

[CragLord]

I would probably mix that with the sound effects of the Huorn from War of the Ring, since the spooky sleep ability sounds a bit too "horrific" and not "natural". Like I'm thinking like the sound of creaking branches with that subtle, scary howl added to it.

Little misunderstanding, I meant on graphics. I meant on that eye picture for palantir button. English isn't my native so I often get into "wrong" situations.
I have Huorn sound pack from WOTR, and concerning sound effect of abilities, I will make them, just I won't do anything about sounds before we get some info from team about this. Simply to be sure and not to waste time.
And concerning DreadLord's sound effect I don't have it, and I think that I could make sound effect for ability "Old Willow song" without it. If someone have it, post it on sound topic, maybe we could use it for this sound effect( as you suggested) or for something else.

Regards,
CragLord

[Crimson King]

Wow, amazing support and development for the Huorn suggestion I posted some days ago

I agree with you bookworm, your suggestions about Huorn moving animation is pretty nice.
Of course, Huorns could have that animations and their speed should be reduced in comparison with spiders.
I hope someone from team will explain is this possible.
Also concerning attack, animations about attack will be pretty interesting to suggest or to create, because Hourns mainly are using roots for damaging something I presume.

Cool idea with the spiders as a base for the animation, and on that note, since as you said, Craglord, using roots to attack could be derived from Shelob's attack animations perhaps? Since it would look similar, at least in my mind XD

I propose that those Huorns senturies will attack anyone who comes near entmoot, but in presence of ents they will attack enemies. I just wanted to suggest this, but it is maybe too much.

I agree with this, since the Ents are the "shepherds" then it would make sense to show an active difference in Huorn behaviour when Ents are in the vicinity or not.

Regarding Old Man Willow, as I said in my original post in the other thread, I'd love to see him implemented in this game, but I am not sure the Entmoot is the right place for this. Mainly due to Old Man Willow having no affiliation whatsoever to Fangorn (at the time of the 3rd Age) or Lorien/Mirkwood Elves. I would see it more likely if he was connected with a faction supported or antagonist to the Shire (Rivendel/Arnor or even Angmar perhaps). With that said, if people decide the Entmoot is the place for all Ent and Huorn lore and galore then I'd be thrilled to be able to summon the "evilest" of them as well

regarding the stances, I would say that Huorns should be immobile most of the time, but quickly become mobile and violent when the entmoot or nearby allied troops are attacked. Like I said before, with an actual Ent close by we could perhaps direct the Huorns' target. This would avoid a stance paradigm and make it more lore-accurate.

As for the Huorns' powers, well, when they are immobile they could give out a slow to nearby enemies and some AoE damage. Though it would be interesting if instead of spread out damage they kill 1 random non-hero minion every X seconds, so as to emulate the Huorns' dragging the enemy into themselves as seen in the extended edition of the Two Towers. If that's too much, AoE is also good. XD

When Huorns' can move, I think it very fitting that they can root units in place, just like the hero power, with slight damage over time to the rooted unit. Just instead of a red aura surrounding them, perhaps green would be better

a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

While I do agree with the Ent Draught ability, having suggested something similar myself before, I don't think Old Man Willow's song should be part of a normal Huorn's repertoire. If the Old Man Willow himself is present, sure, but otherwise doesn't make much sense. Other than that, lorien already has a "sleep" spell and I think rooting enemies in one place is more fitting I've suggested above, than as a sleeping song.


It also came to my mind that Huorns could be generated every X minutes after creating the Entmoot, up to a limit in number of course and on pre-determined spots. This would be interesting in order to create a thicket of trees/Huorns around the Entmoot, which could naturally slow and damage passing enemies, as I've said before. This small "forest" around the Entmoot would be fitting in terms of the lore and epic to just be able to call treebeard into the middle of the grove and have all those Huorns come to life to crush pesky orcs in one go. 
Just another idea to be considered, but maybe it's difficult to implement.

Cheers,
Crimson K.

[CragLord]

Wow, amazing support and development for the Huorn suggestion I posted some days ago

Yes, it is pretty nice idea in first place about them. As you have said already, they are special "folk" in Tolkien universe and also in my opinion they deserve place in this mod because of that.

Cool idea with the spiders as a base for the animation, and on that note, since as you said, Craglord, using roots to attack could be derived from Shelob's attack animations perhaps? Since it would look similar, at least in my mind XD

It will probably be more fitting for bigger models like hoorns one. If this is of course possible at first place.

I propose that those Huorns senturies will attack anyone who comes near entmoot, but in presence of ents they will attack enemies. I just wanted to suggest this, but it is maybe too much.

I agree with this, since the Ents are the "shepherds" then it would make sense to show an active difference in Huorn behaviour when Ents are in the vicinity or not.

Regarding Old Man Willow, as I said in my original post in the other thread, I'd love to see him implemented in this game, but I am not sure the Entmoot is the right place for this. Mainly due to Old Man Willow having no affiliation whatsoever to Fangorn (at the time of the 3rd Age) or Lorien/Mirkwood Elves. I would see it more likely if he was connected with a faction supported or antagonist to the Shire (Rivendel/Arnor or even Angmar perhaps). With that said, if people decide the Entmoot is the place for all Ent and Huorn lore and galore then I'd be thrilled to be able to summon the "evilest" of them as well

Yes, if you are suggesting this " ent shepherd" thing, to current stance system it is something which could cause a lot of problems, but again I presume this, I really don't have experience to claim this with right. I know about lore facts about ents and hourns, so I suggested this lore facts, but honestly I really don't now how to use this fact in proper way in game. Maybe Ent could be in slave system with hourns as Orc battalions have inspection master in Mordor faction? When Ent "inspect" them, they became reasonable and attack only enemies or became controllable (if we take into consideration your suggestion about their passive appearance among entmoot) But again I would leave this "shepherd thing" aside for now. Maybe that stance system among ent "inspection" could work? But again I say, maybe is the best to leave this "shepherd" ent related thing aside?
Concerning Old Man Willow, I think this is good chance to implement this "mean" huorn in game. To be honest, I understand your reasons (geographical) and others not to have this huorn near entmoot, but in same way I think that team probably won't implement individual hourns on individual maps. So, I think this is good reason to suggest Old Willow hourn as part of this unique suggestion. And it have pretty nice lore facts which we could use for this suggestion in very nice way.
Again, those are just reasons of why I think in this way about Old Man Willow.

regarding the stances, I would say that Huorns should be immobile most of the time, but quickly become mobile and violent when the entmoot or nearby allied troops are attacked. Like I said before, with an actual Ent close by we could perhaps direct the Huorns' target. This would avoid a stance paradigm and make it more lore-accurate.

regarding the stances, I would say that Huorns should be immobile most of the time, but quickly become mobile and violent when the entmoot or nearby allied troops are attacked. Like I said before, with an actual Ent close by we could perhaps direct the Huorns' target. This would avoid a stance paradigm and make it more lore-accurate.

I agree about this, it is much more simple and I like it.
But beside this I would also like that we continue with stance system development, and at the end me could suggest both things, and team will choose what is more appropriate in their opinion. Or simply as you are maybe suggesting indirectly, we could maybe integrate some of those stances properties into this proposal of yours.

As for the Huorns' powers, well, when they are immobile they could give out a slow to nearby enemies and some AoE damage. Though it would be interesting if instead of spread out damage they kill 1 random non-hero minion every X seconds, so as to emulate the Huorns' dragging the enemy into themselves as seen in the extended edition of the Two Towers. If that's too much, AoE is also good. XD

When Huorns' can move, I think it very fitting that they can root units in place, just like the hero power, with slight damage over time to the rooted unit. Just instead of a red aura surrounding them, perhaps green would be better.

Well first, we were not precise in our previous proposal (this is all under developing and shaping ), so I thought that root attack in any of stances where it occur will be AOE probably with different area size. So I would probably support some area damage instead killing 1 by one soldiers from battalion, but again it is interesting thing to think about.
I thought about rooting as movement speed, because if they are rooted, they are in position to do some area effect work with their roots as you said, I suggested area slow in situation if they are using their roots for making tremors in that area or damage effect if they are using those roots like mangrove tree does in nature (I tried to get some inspiration from nature ). Also take into consideration that we suggested 3 hourns here, so because of their small number around entmoot I suggested more appropriate area effect on enemy units. If proposal of yours is implemented on 3 hourn, that means 3 rooted soldierss from 1 battalion in some amound of time with damage per second, and I think that is poor effect. If on other hand we suggest somehow greater number of huorns around entmoot (more of huorns which are rooted in circle around entmoot), then your suggestion about single unit root and damage per second is reasonable.
Concerning color of aura, I don't know where you find information about red color, I maybe missed that somewhere. I support of course green color over red for any aura tree oriented.

a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

While I do agree with the Ent Draught ability, having suggested something similar myself before, I don't think Old Man Willow's song should be part of a normal Huorn's repertoire. If the Old Man Willow himself is present, sure, but otherwise doesn't make much sense. Other than that, lorien already has a "sleep" spell and I think rooting enemies in one place is more fitting I've suggested above, than as a sleeping song.

It also came to my mind that Huorns could be generated every X minutes after creating the Entmoot, up to a limit in number of course and on pre-determined spots. This would be interesting in order to create a thicket of trees/Huorns around the Entmoot, which could naturally slow and damage passing enemies, as I've said before. This small "forest" around the Entmoot would be fitting in terms of the lore and epic to just be able to call treebeard into the middle of the grove and have all those Huorns come to life to crush pesky orcs in one go. 
Just another idea to be considered, but maybe it's difficult to implement.

Cheers,
Crimson K.

And this is part of your answer I liked the most.
Simply if persons approach to suggestion in right way, discussion is going in right direction, in otherwords getting better.
I agree about "Sleepy" spell with you. You are completely right, Lorien already have Mirkwood stream in their Powers Meni, and that obviously we didn't take into consideration. But in same way, I think if we implement somehow Old Man Willow into this, this is lore fact we must use. So I suggest some compromise, we could suggest this "Sleepy" ability but in way it effects heroes only? In this way, I think Old Willow will became in some way a semi hero in Lorien, hero unit between hourns.

Concerning that last suggestion about hourns, it is also nice one, I have something similar on mind (I also suggested some reserved plots etc). So we should  take it into consideration. Main problem for now is that current members of this discussion don't have enough technical knowledge about game engine, so we don't know is anything of this possible at first place. We need some technical support if we want to continue this in proper way.

Regards,
CragLord

[The_Necromancer0]

Maybe you made mistake by their placement in that picture, but that was irrelevant for purpose of visual change.

Wow, just noticed. Not sure how it happened, must have been a long night.

I don't have much to add but I'll just throw that here for the record, don't know if it'll be implemented. It's something I found while re-reading LOTR.

His [Saruman] heart is as rotten as a black Huorn's.

This is the part where the company leaves Isengard after having defeated Saruman. This is just to emphasize how evil Huorns can be. If anything this clearly shows that the lore points towards the "sheperd" system (attack all except if Ent nearby)

[SP19XX]

Concerning Old Man Willow, I think this is good chance to implement this "mean" huorn in game. To be honest, I understand your reasons (geographical) and others not to have this huorn near entmoot, but in same way I think that team probably won't implement individual hourns on individual maps. So, I think this is good reason to suggest Old Willow hourn as part of this unique suggestion. And it have pretty nice lore facts which we could use for this suggestion in very nice way.
Again, those are just reasons of why I think in this way about Old Man Willow.

Well there is another method that the Huorn's can be used that would also fix the issue of him not being allied to Lorien etc in the first place. Perhaps he could be a hero generated into the Entmoot from Galadriel choosing to accept the ring and when she does all Huorn's inside of the moot come under your control.

When Galadriel accepts the ring the Ents abandon you and you cannot train more of them, which would let the Huorn's fill in as their siege at that point in time. Plus due to the Ring's influence it would be easy enough for Galadriel to bind their allegiance to her and draw Old Man Willow to it's power.

[The_Necromancer0]

When Galadriel accepts the ring the Ents abandon you and you cannot train more of them, which would let the Huorn's fill in as their siege at that point in time. Plus due to the Ring's influence it would be easy enough for Galadriel to bind their allegiance to her and draw Old Man Willow to it's power.

I'm not sure but I believe that Dark Galadriel already fills in the role of siege weapon. But  it's an interesting suggestion although I believe that the huorns would more likely follow the Ents away than join Galadriel

[CragLord]

Well there is another method that the Huorn's can be used that would also fix the issue of him not being allied to Lorien etc in the first place. Perhaps he could be a hero generated into the Entmoot from Galadriel choosing to accept the ring and when she does all Huorn's inside of the moot come under your control.

When Galadriel accepts the ring the Ents abandon you and you cannot train more of them, which would let the Huorn's fill in as their siege at that point in time. Plus due to the Ring's influence it would be easy enough for Galadriel to bind their allegiance to her and draw Old Man Willow to it's power.

I must admit there is good logic here if we take into consideration evil side of the ring and evil side of huorns, actually their corrupted nature. Main problem for now is that team disable siege weapons (Ents, or anyother) when Galadriel accepts ring, because she became ultimate siege weapon then. So I would like at the end of this discussion when we make final concept to suggest this proposal as one of possible ways to implement them (something similar Necromancer did with his first comment, there he gather all suggestions so far).
But main problem with implementation of Hourns in this way (when Galadriel accepts ring) would be their role. Ents are disabled, so Entmoot isn't in use int this case, so what would be role of Huorns? To protect building which isn't producing units? They won't be siege weapons in that case for sure, so this gives me little hope about this proposal, but as I said, maybe something could be combined with this anyway.

I'm not sure but I believe that Dark Galadriel already fills in the role of siege weapon. But  it's an interesting suggestion although I believe that the huorns would more likely follow the Ents away than join Galadriel

Yes, you are right about this. But we also could suggest this from  aspects of "evil" situation when Galadriel accepts ring. When she accepts ring, Lothlorien became a bit corrupted place (in my opinion, all became so black and gray) so she probably have power to control those corrupted trees as huorns and their corrupted (I mainly refer on Old Man Willow here) nature. In my opinion this corrupted nature fits into atmosphere of dark Lorien.
That is just my opinion.

Regards,
Crag

[Telperion]

I was a bit sceptic the first time i read this thread but you have developped a very impressive concept. I love the idea of huorns and Old man Willow replacing the ents when Galadriel accept the ring. Even if dark Galadriel is a very powerful siege weapon it is not easy to attack with only one siege weapon.

[CragLord]

I was a bit sceptic the first time i read this thread but you have developped a very impressive concept. I love the idea of huorns and Old man Willow replacing the ents when Galadriel accept the ring. Even if dark Galadriel is a very powerful siege weapon it is not easy to attack with only one siege weapon.

Yes it is nice concept, but it is not only problem with siege weapon side/role (although it is main problem), problem is if you want to suggest them as siege weapons, what animations you suggest, how they will attack buildings? How they will use to express their siege role? Roots? How hourns will use roots as siege weapons? What kind of animations you suggest for this? Then, this means you suggest that hourn will be regular production unit? I don't like that to be honest. Simply it is not ent so it could walk, it is rooten tree which moves a lot slower and only in some particular situations. In my opinion hourns shouldn't be standard units, they should be unique and I like slave system with entmoot because it is in my opinion the most reasonable one from lore facts.
It is easy to suggest main purpose, we need details so we could make final concept which has some value.

Regards,
CragLord

[Melkor Bauglir]

Isn't Dark Galadriel a melee hero, therefore absolutely not capable of dealing with real defenses and thus no siege unit any more? This would BTW also be a problem for Huorns because if they are melee a fire bunker destroys them and if they are ranged I don't really see the point of them replacing the Ents in the first place.
Not that I don't like the huorns, your ideas actually made me think about them a lot to the point that I myself did a little brainstorming about possible concepts, but such a change isn't really wise if you ask me.
What I however don't like are those roots: First of all, Lothlorien and too many cc-effects are a complete no-go for me -the archer faction really needs a weakness and being able to root, snare, slow, stun and fear the crap out of poor enemy forces giving them no chance at all ever to reach Lothlorien's troops would be a conceptual nightmare. I also don't see any room for such cc-effects, because Lorien already has a good amout of them or of other safe mechanisms. Secondly I know Old Man Willow did imprison some of the hobbits, but those idiots were leaning against his trunk. Being able to root entire groups of people on the move is just over the top in my opinion, to the point where I'd ask myself why the hell the huorn wouldn't just murder the trapped units by strangling or crushing their victims if it obviouly has the ability of growing vines and roots at such a speed, it can trap moving forces. Nevertheless, the first point is more important.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Odysseus]

Regarding your first point,

Dark Galadriel's attack against buildings remains the same. Her standard attack against infantry is changed to a more melee oriented attack, as you say. However, she also receives a mini-earthquake to deal with structures. If anything, that mini-eaerthquake could use some love, but that is for another topic.

About the Entmoot: As it stands, the Entmoot can repair itself if left alone for a while. This is quite a big thing. Imagine a level 2-3 Siege Works that can repair itself. Additionally, its hitbox is strangely...off; making it harder to be destroyed in close combat. I think the structure is fine as it is, but if it really needs to be done in some way, I'd advise the building to level up through production, like the Beorning hut, and then at level 2 or 3, defensive Huorn creeps could aid in protecting it. That way, your heavy investments could be rewarded further. Like an arrow tower.

Personally, I think the proposal is being overdone a little. It's like we are seeking some way to justify the Huorns simply as an addition. In that sense, as the Beornings have been nerfed, their hut is more fragile now too, and along that path it should have a way to defend itself as well, in my opinion. Bee creeps, pretty please. Either both, or none, I suppose.

Either way, I would like to wait before we change such a thing about Lothlorien. The faction has been out for less than a month; the Entmoot being able to repair itself quickly should be more than enough. Players have to better comprehend where and when to specifically build an entmoot.

Just my two cents.

[CragLord]

Isn't Dark Galadriel a melee hero, therefore absolutely not capable of dealing with real defenses and thus no siege unit any more? This would BTW also be a problem for Huorns because if they are melee a fire bunker destroys them and if they are ranged I don't really see the point of them replacing the Ents in the first place.
Not that I don't like the huorns, your ideas actually made me think about them a lot to the point that I myself did a little brainstorming about possible concepts, but such a change isn't really wise if you ask me.

About Galadriel attack you get info from Odysseus. About Galadriel Dark form and Huorn it was just random thought as I can see. It was linked by corrupted nature so proposal was a logical from that aspect, but as you can see I was also against that. Huorns are mainly here proposed as some kind of defence for Entmoot, not as regular siege unit so far. It is proposed maybe, but that proposal have a lot of missing parts, so, no too much to say about it. And we should try to polish this to some good level.

What I however don't like are those roots: First of all, Lothlorien and too many cc-effects are a complete no-go for me -the archer faction really needs a weakness and being able to root, snare, slow, stun and fear the crap out of poor enemy forces giving them no chance at all ever to reach Lothlorien's troops would be a conceptual nightmare.

I agree that Lorien has a lot of side effect as faction, but you globalized this proposal to some higher level.
First, proposal about stances, as you could read in previous comments, it is mostly defensive mechanism for Entmoot, no matter what stance we choose. So I really don't understand you when you globalized this as those Hourns will be able to walk with army and use their stances in first front of battle. Simply this is reserved for defence of Entmoot, so don't globalize this to entire faction and those capabilities you described. There will be improvement but not in measure you describe.
If those proposals are too OP, simply we should try to make them less OP, not to reject them in some way. Simply that is my opinion about discussion in general.  

Secondly I know Old Man Willow did imprison some of the hobbits, but those idiots were leaning against his trunk. Being able to root entire groups of people on the move is just over the top in my opinion, to the point where I'd ask myself why the hell the huorn wouldn't just murder the trapped units by strangling or crushing their victims if it obviouly has the ability of growing vines and roots at such a speed, it can trap moving forces. Nevertheless, the first point is more important.

Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general.
Don't mind me wrong, but this is not first time, I read something from your comment and then I realize you are taking so much facts from real life.
It is proposal, and yes it is possible for talking tree which is able to move. In this world we can propose I think that kind of "magic being" is capable of using their roots to share enemies and trap them. It was matter of concept mainly man, and you are refering to speed of growth. It is irrelevant ascertainment...
For the end, to be clear I would like those huorns as some kind of defensive mechanisam for Entmoot, and in same time I am trying to combine all lore facts we have about them, and that is why we suggested Old Willow and those abilities of sleepy song etc
I think it will be nice to think in this way, thats all.

Regarding your first point,

Dark Galadriel's attack against buildings remains the same. Her standard attack against infantry is changed to a more melee oriented attack, as you say. However, she also receives a mini-earthquake to deal with structures. If anything, that mini-eaerthquake could use some love, but that is for another topic.

About the Entmoot: As it stands, the Entmoot can repair itself if left alone for a while. This is quite a big thing. Imagine a level 2-3 Siege Works that can repair itself. Additionally, its hitbox is strangely...off; making it harder to be destroyed in close combat. I think the structure is fine as it is, but if it really needs to be done in some way, I'd advise the building to level up through production, like the Beorning hut, and then at level 2 or 3, defensive Huorn creeps could aid in protecting it. That way, your heavy investments could be rewarded further. Like an arrow tower.

Personally, I think the proposal is being overdone a little. It's like we are seeking some way to justify the Huorns simply as an addition. In that sense, as the Beornings have been nerfed, their hut is more fragile now too, and along that path it should have a way to defend itself as well, in my opinion. Bee creeps, pretty please. Either both, or none, I suppose.

Either way, I would like to wait before we change such a thing about Lothlorien. The faction has been out for less than a month; the Entmoot being able to repair itself quickly should be more than enough. Players have to better comprehend where and when to specifically build an entmoot.

Just my two cents.

Concerning Entmoot repair, I haven't used that in concideration, but that is not big thing, expecially if we take into consideration that "its hitbox is strangely...off" should be fixed, because it is not reasonable to be able of repairing while it is attacked. I don't know is this bug, but anyway it should be changed, so its hitbox is on? I think it should be changed. Entmoot isn't gate or structure in process of building so hitbox is off.
If that is gonna be changed, then Entmoot has problem from defensive aspect. I think that current situation with hitbox is not right or logical.
Also I like your proposal about production leveling and of course you are for that huorn upgrade on higher level. I am fine with that, I was also thinking about it, it is really reasonable suggestion. Just what are you suggested for them? To have stance system or to be as builing part, not selectable? Something as Crimson King suggested in his last comment.
Yes, suggestion is maybe overdone, but some thoughts are important so we could polish suggestion in general. I agree that Lothlorien is pretty new and young as faction but this don't have to be instant proposal for next patch, simply take care about that. Maybe people here think that this will implemented right away if someone like it, but it is long process in the most cases, so I am encouraging futher development, and I call experienced members in gameplay term to leave their opinion mostly in balance way if this is concerning you or rest of members from this discussion.
I must say, balance things as cost of upgrade and similar (not these on which you are refering) should be left for the end of concept.
I will see when I find time to make comment with preview of all suggestions so far, or Necromancer can do that by editing his first comment. To be clear about all proposals.

Regards,
CragLord

[The_Necromancer0]

OP has been edited, tell me if I have missed anything

[Melkor Bauglir]

@CragLord:
You are right. Just as guardians of the Ent Moot this is of course no real problem.

Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general.

About that: You might be right about this, but I see it a little different: It's not so much about reality (in which moving trees obviously don't exist), but about consistency (in which there are no roots which first grow extremely fast, catching moving people, but than can't just grow further crushing them). I hope you see the difference, because just realism is of course not important in a fantasy world. However even a fantasy world has its rules and must follow them, otherwise it would be just a random mess of randomness. Like nobody would like it if suddenly aliens invade Middle-Earth: Just as unreal as moving trees, but completely inconsistent.

I'm not really sure, what the repair stuff is about, normal buildings do repair themselves if left unchecked, so why not the Ent Moot?

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[CragLord]

About that: You might be right about this, but I see it a little different: It's not so much about reality (in which moving trees obviously don't exist), but about consistency (in which there are no roots which first grow extremely fast, catching moving people, but than can't just grow further crushing them). I hope you see the difference, because just realism is of course not important in a fantasy world. However even a fantasy world has its rules and must follow them, otherwise it would be just a random mess of randomness. Like nobody would like it if suddenly aliens invade Middle-Earth: Just as unreal as moving trees, but completely inconsistent.

I'm not really sure, what the repair stuff is about, normal buildings do repair themselves if left unchecked, so why not the Ent Moot?

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

I understand you of course. 
As moving trees, we could then in "consistency" term tell that those trees are able to use their roots in proper way. Not to increase its growth, but instead to use it properly, I mean, move it properly with proper speed and in proper "angle" so it can damage or "root" enemy. This is just part of concept and I really don't know how closer to describe. 

[Odysseus]

@Melkor

The Entmoot repairs itself like a citadel. It starts earlier than normal buildings after having being damaged, and at a higher rate.

[CragLord]

OP has been edited, tell me if I have missed anything

I will try to sum all ideas of mine and those current suggestions and to put them on next " proposal list", and it is concerned only of huorns:

I) Animations and Skin

We were thinking of  animation of the spider attack and animation of spider move but with an tree skin as seen below:

II) Suggestions for hourns implementation in game:

• Stances Slave system as purchasable upgrade at Entmoot
  
  
  Huorns will be implemented as Slave System attached to Entmoot, which means hourns behave as neutral creaps towards entmoot as "neutral den". They can't move from it in greater radius.
  We had two suggestions so far, in both we have approximately three huorns as result. In first one as one of those hourns Old Man Willow is integrated, in second there is no Old Man Willow houorn, just approximately three regular hourns. As system those hourns behave as one unit and they have stances and abilities. Three possible stances and two abilities if Old Man Willow is integrated as one of them or one ability if there is no Old Willow in system.
  
  Stances are:
  
  

  • Defensive Stance
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    The Huorns gather around the Entmoot and "root" themselves (become immobile) from that point on they give out a large poison aura (similar to Dol Goldur but on a larger area).
    Or second mini suggestion concerning Defensive stance is that instead poison effect, they could have only slowing (movement speed or attack speed or both) effect to units around them. So they will be in this situation living barrier which protects Entmoot and absorb damage. This also meant there is no problems with visual effects which occurs with poison aura in game for now.
    In both cases this stance improves their defense greatly but their attack is heavily diminished. In both cases the animation on terrain arround rooted huorns could be little roots coming out of the ground:
    
    
    
    
    
    (For user Melkor, take a look, they are not using roots in defensive mode as tool with which they entangle enemies! They use roots to make "mine" field and after enemy unit step on it, they became poisoned or slowed in movement speed!)
    
    
  • Normal Stance
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    The Huorns patrol around the Entmoot but don't leave it. When they only attack if attacked (could fix the whole attack all units imbalance). They use roots that they use to hit enemies at a range (archer range) by travelling underground.
    Then concerning we suggested spider animations, this probably means that spider model will be transformed into Houorn, so that means that probably spider attack animation should be reconsidered as one of suggestions for Hour attack animation, and that basicly means that hour will use 2 of its roots for attack in melee. So this should be on mind also, melee root damage! And I also found it reasonable.
    There was also suggestion that if attack is melee, maybe they can have AOE attakc with lesser damage, or they can kill 1 by 1 unit in battalion per hit.
    
    
  • Aggressive Stance
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    The Huorns attack all units that come within range of the Entmoot (has to be Entmoot). They go up to the enemy and kill the battalion.  They have to behave like creeps even though that would also reduce their power. Aggressive Stance should grant them a 50% attack boost but no defense nerf.

  
  
  Now concerning abilities we have suggested two abilities in general:
  
  

  • Ent Draught
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns. That was first suggestions. There could be some combinations between effect on units/Hourns/Ents because it is not necessary to have effect on units, because Elven units have passive heal at level 2.
    
  • Old Man Willow's Song
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots. This was initial proposal.
    I would change all of this as sleepy effect on heroes only, and that is all. Simply I am against this drain ability and right now in power palantir we have power Mirkwood steam which can be used on units, so lets suggest unique ability for Old Willow which is correlated with lore. So Old Willow sing on entish and make nearby enemy heroes sleepy (immobilized).
    Simply Old Willow will in that way gain some kind of Hourn hero role, and I like that. It is maybe OP, but there is always balance thing to discuss on, and cost value to make this balanced in final concept.
    

  
  Both versions of this system should have all three stances and Ent Draught as passive or active ability. And Old Man Willow's Song should be integrated as ability only in system with Old Man Willow as huorn.
  The Palantir look for system with Old Man Willow will look like this:
  
  
  1. Defensive Stance
  2. Normal Stance
  3. Aggressive Stance
  4. Ent Draught
  5. Old Man Willow's Song
  
  
• Stances Slave system as purchasable upgrade at Entmoot crossed with Ent's shepherd system
  
  
  In this case we are suggesting Ent shepherd role over huorns. So proposal is same as above, we have Stances Slave system as upgrade at Entmoot. Concerning Hourns they have same properties like in "Stances Slave system as purchasable upgrade at Entmoot" proposal above, but after they are completed as upgrade, we can't control them. They behave as neutral creeps and they attack any unit which comes near Entmoot (except Ents of course). In this way we have tried to use information from lore:
  

  His [Saruman] heart is as rotten as a black Huorn's.

  And to implement Ent as shepherd. When we produce Ent, he will be able to "inspect" huorns and after that they became controllable as one unit (same exist in Mordor with Orc Inspection system). After that we can use their stances and abilities as it is described in first proposal. Cost of Hours as upgrade should be smaller then in first proposal, simply because we need to use Ent as shepherd. Ent will be part of this unit and we can't use it again separately (same idea as with Mordor Overseers).
  
  Also there is possibility of suggesting same without Inspection system, which means that Hourns will be wild and not under our control while there is no Ent nearby, but when Ent comes nearby them we can control them.
  
  Because of rich possibilities of first two proposals (abilities + stances), they are mentioned as upgrade with reasonable cost.
  
  
• Hourns as final building upgrade through Entmoot leveling production system
  
  
  There are two options for this upgrade:
  
  

  • Rooted Mode Proposal
    
    This is proposal of making Entmoot as building which gain exp though production of Ents and Entish heroes. At level 3, Hourns as unlocked as final upgrade (as defensive upgrades to regular buildings).
    Hourns pop up on reserved plots over Entmoot, for example 5 Hourns pop up around Entmoot. They protect Entmoot with bodies and they can't move. We can't select them, they attack only enemy units, and they have AOE melee attack with knock back as primal effect. They basically can't move, instead they rotate in reserved place while they fight against melee intruders (I presumed they have spider basic attack, so they need to rotate so they can face properly attacking units).
    
    There is also version of this proposal which includes that Hourns, after Entmoot has reached level 3, start to appear around entmoot on reserved places (plots) during time. This means that first one appear after Entmoot is reached level 3. Second one appear X minutes after, third one X minutes after second one etc.
    
    Also I suggested that Hourns have melee attack (knock back effect) in this version and they have pure protective role. Weakness, they are hopeless against range units particulary siege, because they are rooted in place the whole time. They will have great armor so they could tank a lot of time, but weakness is they are rooted.
    
    
  • Mobile mode proposal
    
    Same mechanism as in Rooted proposal, they are melee units (now they have greater aoe effect with attack and deal area damage as primal effect of AOE nature of attack), which pop up on reserved places. They are not able to control, and they are attacking only enemy units which comes into their protection radius, and they are mobile. They are able to move and attack.
    Weakness of this mode is very low armor. So basically they are feral and able to counter range units but with price of low armor.
    
    There is also version of this mode, that they periodically pop up on reserved places after Entmoot is reached level 3 through production of units.
  
  
• Hourns instead Ents in situation when Galadriel accepts ring of power
  
  
  This is the most radical suggestion so far. We suggest new production list of units for Entmoot when Galadriel accepts ring. Huorns will replace Ents, because Ents feel corrupted nature of ring and they don't want to follow or help Galadriel.
  As we find in lore, properties of huorns can be classified as evil or corrupted which perfectly fits into nature of Ring of Power.
  So basicly Huorn is replacing Ent as regular siege unit. Hourns will have same properties as Ent, they will move slowly as Ents, will have regular unit stance system and double selective attack system (clone of Ents selective option):
  
  

  • Underground roots (which corresponds to Throw rock state):
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    Huorns will use their roots to damage enemies and building through underground, best example which I could give you is same attack as this feral zerg unit from this video: Link
    So root traveling speed will be same as Ents throwed Rock speed.
    
    
  • Roots on the ground (same as Ent melee attack mode)
    
    Palantir button look:
    
    
    
    Hourns uses their roots though air in melee mode. Same effects as Ent melee attack.
    

  Hourn Hero which will replace Ent Heroes is Old Man Willow.
  And if we start with developing this four proposal in general, then I will express my opinion about abilitis of this hero.
  In short lines, Old Willow will probably have Ent Draught as ability and Old Man Willow's Song ability. Also there are many other root oriented proposals in my mind, but I won't be much detailed now. If we in general decide to develop this further I will express my proposals and detailed opinion.  

III) Huorn Sound Pack and Sound effects

Concerning new sounds, I have pack for Hourns from game WotR, it is very fitting, lots of tree sounds etc. Concerning sounds for abilities I will personally make them, but I need to know what we need etc. I don't want to waste time until we get some official statement from team about this.
So this is not problem at all!

So, I tried to sum all which we discussed here, that this is list with my personal touch. What you think about this? What should I change or add?

Kind regards,
CragLord

 

[The_Necromancer0]

So, I tried to sum all which we discussed here, that this is list with my personal touch. What you think about this? What should I change or add?

I think it's all there, now we would need to had a statement from the team and/or from an experienced players for the animation and overall possibility of the suggestion.

[KingdomofErebor]

I absolutely LOVE this idea and you have my support, the only things I would suggest would be to make sure the huorns move slowly, they are dormant ents after all, secondly I think it would be amazing if some how, i don't know if it's possible but could Old man Willows face be put on one of the huorn models, just as a kind of nod to that chapter in the books?

Let me know what you think !

Baruk Khazad!

[IronSkye]

I love your suggestion and can only support this, but I honestly doubt that Huorns will be ever in game. If I remember right the Edain- team is against Huorns, they said in an old post (3.81 Lothlorien Suggestion thread) that placing Huorns in Lorien is abstract and not Lore like and complicated.

br Sky

[CragLord]

This implementation is for Lothlorien faction of course, but in same time this isn't 3.8.1.
I don't know what team have said for that version, but since then, they implement many different systems in game. We officially still don't know anything about team's opinion about this suggestion.
I really don't see why this will be some problem.
From lore aspect, we suggest huorns mostly for defence of Entmoot as slave system, that means they won't be regular units for Lothlorien, they will be defensive mechanism for Entmoot, and that is completely lore justified and correct.
Of course, I have collect all suggestions so far because of preview, but in my opinion Hourns as upgrade (purchasable or passive on entmoot level 3 as defensive upgrade) is mainly correlated to entmoot and it is lore wise.

Regards,
CragLord