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Autor Thema: Ents  (Gelesen 18001 mal)

bookworm1138

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #15 am: 16. Nov 2015, 23:15 »
Yes, I played WC3 for a long time, earlier I knew every single shortcut in game, but that was long time ago. :P I think that sleep Dread Lord ability fits 100% for Old Man Willow song. :)

I would probably mix that with the sound effects of the Huorn from War of the Ring, since the spooky sleep ability sounds a bit too "horrific" and not "natural". Like I'm thinking like the sound of creaking branches with that subtle, scary howl added to it.
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #16 am: 16. Nov 2015, 23:26 »

Little misunderstanding, I meant on graphics. :P I meant on that eye picture for palantir button. English isn't my native so I often get into "wrong" situations. xD
I have Huorn sound pack from WOTR, and concerning sound effect of abilities, I will make them, just I won't do anything about sounds before we get some info from team about this. :) Simply to be sure and not to waste time.
And concerning DreadLord's sound effect I don't have it, and I think that I could make sound effect for ability "Old Willow song" without it. If someone have it, post it on sound topic, maybe we could use it for this sound effect( as you suggested) or for something else. :)

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Nov 2015, 02:23 von CragLord »

Crimson King

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #17 am: 17. Nov 2015, 13:46 »
Wow, amazing support and development for the Huorn suggestion I posted some days ago :D

Zitat von: CragLord
I agree with you bookworm, your suggestions about Huorn moving animation is pretty nice. :)
Of course, Huorns could have that animations and their speed should be reduced in comparison with spiders. :P :)
I hope someone from team will explain is this possible. :)
Also concerning attack, animations about attack will be pretty interesting to suggest or to create, because Hourns mainly are using roots for damaging something I presume.

Cool idea with the spiders as a base for the animation, and on that note, since as you said, Craglord, using roots to attack could be derived from Shelob's attack animations perhaps? Since it would look similar, at least in my mind XD

Zitat
I propose that those Huorns senturies will attack anyone who comes near entmoot, but in presence of ents they will attack enemies. :) I just wanted to suggest this, but it is maybe too much.

I agree with this, since the Ents are the "shepherds" then it would make sense to show an active difference in Huorn behaviour when Ents are in the vicinity or not.

Regarding Old Man Willow, as I said in my original post in the other thread, I'd love to see him implemented in this game, but I am not sure the Entmoot is the right place for this. Mainly due to Old Man Willow having no affiliation whatsoever to Fangorn (at the time of the 3rd Age) or Lorien/Mirkwood Elves. I would see it more likely if he was connected with a faction supported or antagonist to the Shire (Rivendel/Arnor or even Angmar perhaps). With that said, if people decide the Entmoot is the place for all Ent and Huorn lore and galore then I'd be thrilled to be able to summon the "evilest" of them as well :D

regarding the stances, I would say that Huorns should be immobile most of the time, but quickly become mobile and violent when the entmoot or nearby allied troops are attacked. Like I said before, with an actual Ent close by we could perhaps direct the Huorns' target. This would avoid a stance paradigm and make it more lore-accurate.

As for the Huorns' powers, well, when they are immobile they could give out a slow to nearby enemies and some AoE damage. Though it would be interesting if instead of spread out damage they kill 1 random non-hero minion every X seconds, so as to emulate the Huorns' dragging the enemy into themselves as seen in the extended edition of the Two Towers. If that's too much, AoE is also good. XD

When Huorns' can move, I think it very fitting that they can root units in place, just like the hero power, with slight damage over time to the rooted unit. Just instead of a red aura surrounding them, perhaps green would be better

Zitat
a. Old Man Willow's Song
Units in the nearby area to the Entmoot are put to "sleep" (immobilized), this is similar  to the spell book but it might need some uniqueness setting like a small life drain similar to being swallowed by the roots.

b. Ent Draught
Old Man Willow lets loose Ent Draught healing nearby friendly troops and Huorns. This will help strengthen the Huorns.

While I do agree with the Ent Draught ability, having suggested something similar myself before, I don't think Old Man Willow's song should be part of a normal Huorn's repertoire. If the Old Man Willow himself is present, sure, but otherwise doesn't make much sense. Other than that, lorien already has a "sleep" spell and I think rooting enemies in one place is more fitting I've suggested above, than as a sleeping song.


It also came to my mind that Huorns could be generated every X minutes after creating the Entmoot, up to a limit in number of course and on pre-determined spots. This would be interesting in order to create a thicket of trees/Huorns around the Entmoot, which could naturally slow and damage passing enemies, as I've said before. This small "forest" around the Entmoot would be fitting in terms of the lore and epic to just be able to call treebeard into the middle of the grove and have all those Huorns come to life to crush pesky orcs in one go.  8-)
Just another idea to be considered, but maybe it's difficult to implement.

Cheers,
Crimson K.




CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #18 am: 22. Nov 2015, 01:00 »
Yes, it is pretty nice idea in first place about them. As you have said already, they are special "folk" in Tolkien universe and also in my opinion they deserve place in this mod because of that. :)

It will probably be more fitting for bigger models like hoorns one. If this is of course possible at first place. :)

Yes, if you are suggesting this " ent shepherd" thing, to current stance system it is something which could cause a lot of problems, but again I presume this, I really don't have experience to claim this with right. I know about lore facts about ents and hourns, so I suggested this lore facts, but honestly I really don't now how to use this fact in proper way in game. Maybe Ent could be in slave system with hourns as Orc battalions have inspection master in Mordor faction? When Ent "inspect" them, they became reasonable and attack only enemies or became controllable (if we take into consideration your suggestion about their passive appearance among entmoot) But again I would leave this "shepherd thing" aside for now. Maybe that stance system among ent "inspection" could work? But again I say, maybe is the best to leave this "shepherd" ent related thing aside?
Concerning Old Man Willow, I think this is good chance to implement this "mean" huorn in game. To be honest, I understand your reasons (geographical) and others not to have this huorn near entmoot, but in same way I think that team probably won't implement individual hourns on individual maps. So, I think this is good reason to suggest Old Willow hourn as part of this unique suggestion. And it have pretty nice lore facts which we could use for this suggestion in very nice way. :)
Again, those are just reasons of why I think in this way about Old Man Willow.

I agree about this, it is much more simple and I like it. :)
But beside this I would also like that we continue with stance system development, and at the end me could suggest both things, and team will choose what is more appropriate in their opinion. Or simply as you are maybe suggesting indirectly, we could maybe integrate some of those stances properties into this proposal of yours.

Well first, we were not precise in our previous proposal (this is all under developing and shaping :) ), so I thought that root attack in any of stances where it occur will be AOE probably with different area size. So I would probably support some area damage instead killing 1 by one soldiers from battalion, but again it is interesting thing to think about. :)
I thought about rooting as movement speed, because if they are rooted, they are in position to do some area effect work with their roots as you said, I suggested area slow in situation if they are using their roots for making tremors in that area or damage effect if they are using those roots like mangrove tree does in nature (I tried to get some inspiration from nature xD :) ). Also take into consideration that we suggested 3 hourns here, so because of their small number around entmoot I suggested more appropriate area effect on enemy units. If proposal of yours is implemented on 3 hourn, that means 3 rooted soldierss from 1 battalion in some amound of time with damage per second, and I think that is poor effect. If on other hand we suggest somehow greater number of huorns around entmoot (more of huorns which are rooted in circle around entmoot), then your suggestion about single unit root and damage per second is reasonable.
Concerning color of aura, I don't know where you find information about red color, I maybe missed that somewhere. xD I support of course green color over red for any aura tree oriented. :)

And this is part of your answer I liked the most. :)
Simply if persons approach to suggestion in right way, discussion is going in right direction, in otherwords getting better.
I agree about "Sleepy" spell with you. You are completely right, Lorien already have Mirkwood stream in their Powers Meni, and that obviously we didn't take into consideration. :) But in same way, I think if we implement somehow Old Man Willow into this, this is lore fact we must use. So I suggest some compromise, we could suggest this "Sleepy" ability but in way it effects heroes only? In this way, I think Old Willow will became in some way a semi hero in Lorien, hero unit between hourns. :)

Concerning that last suggestion about hourns, it is also nice one, I have something similar on mind (I also suggested some reserved plots etc). So we should  take it into consideration. Main problem for now is that current members of this discussion don't have enough technical knowledge about game engine, so we don't know is anything of this possible at first place. xD We need some technical support if we want to continue this in proper way.

Regards,
CragLord

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #19 am: 22. Nov 2015, 05:11 »
Zitat
Maybe you made mistake by their placement in that picture, but that was irrelevant for purpose of visual change.
Wow, just noticed. Not sure how it happened, must have been a long night.

I don't have much to add but I'll just throw that here for the record, don't know if it'll be implemented. It's something I found while re-reading LOTR.

Zitat
His [Saruman] heart is as rotten as a black Huorn's.
This is the part where the company leaves Isengard after having defeated Saruman. This is just to emphasize how evil Huorns can be. If anything this clearly shows that the lore points towards the "sheperd" system (attack all except if Ent nearby)
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SP19XX

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #20 am: 22. Nov 2015, 13:11 »
Zitat von: Craglord
Concerning Old Man Willow, I think this is good chance to implement this "mean" huorn in game. To be honest, I understand your reasons (geographical) and others not to have this huorn near entmoot, but in same way I think that team probably won't implement individual hourns on individual maps. So, I think this is good reason to suggest Old Willow hourn as part of this unique suggestion. And it have pretty nice lore facts which we could use for this suggestion in very nice way. :)
Again, those are just reasons of why I think in this way about Old Man Willow.
Well there is another method that the Huorn's can be used that would also fix the issue of him not being allied to Lorien etc in the first place. Perhaps he could be a hero generated into the Entmoot from Galadriel choosing to accept the ring and when she does all Huorn's inside of the moot come under your control.

When Galadriel accepts the ring the Ents abandon you and you cannot train more of them, which would let the Huorn's fill in as their siege at that point in time. Plus due to the Ring's influence it would be easy enough for Galadriel to bind their allegiance to her and draw Old Man Willow to it's power.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #21 am: 22. Nov 2015, 13:21 »
Zitat
When Galadriel accepts the ring the Ents abandon you and you cannot train more of them, which would let the Huorn's fill in as their siege at that point in time. Plus due to the Ring's influence it would be easy enough for Galadriel to bind their allegiance to her and draw Old Man Willow to it's power.

I'm not sure but I believe that Dark Galadriel already fills in the role of siege weapon. But  it's an interesting suggestion although I believe that the huorns would more likely follow the Ents away than join Galadriel
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #22 am: 22. Nov 2015, 16:35 »
I must admit there is good logic here if we take into consideration evil side of the ring and evil side of huorns, actually their corrupted nature. Main problem for now is that team disable siege weapons (Ents, or anyother) when Galadriel accepts ring, because she became ultimate siege weapon then. So I would like at the end of this discussion when we make final concept to suggest this proposal as one of possible ways to implement them (something similar Necromancer did with his first comment, there he gather all suggestions so far).
But main problem with implementation of Hourns in this way (when Galadriel accepts ring) would be their role. Ents are disabled, so Entmoot isn't in use int this case, so what would be role of Huorns? To protect building which isn't producing units? They won't be siege weapons in that case for sure, so this gives me little hope about this proposal, but as I said, maybe something could be combined with this anyway. :)

Yes, you are right about this. But we also could suggest this from  aspects of "evil" situation when Galadriel accepts ring. When she accepts ring, Lothlorien became a bit corrupted place (in my opinion, all became so black and gray) so she probably have power to control those corrupted trees as huorns and their corrupted (I mainly refer on Old Man Willow here) nature. In my opinion this corrupted nature fits into atmosphere of dark Lorien. :)
That is just my opinion. :)

Regards,
Crag
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Nov 2015, 19:13 von CragLord »

Telperion

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #23 am: 23. Nov 2015, 21:58 »
I was a bit sceptic the first time i read this thread but you have developped a very impressive concept. I love the idea of huorns and Old man Willow replacing the ents when Galadriel accept the ring. Even if dark Galadriel is a very powerful siege weapon it is not easy to attack with only one siege weapon.

CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #24 am: 23. Nov 2015, 22:12 »
Yes it is nice concept, but it is not only problem with siege weapon side/role (although it is main problem), problem is if you want to suggest them as siege weapons, what animations you suggest, how they will attack buildings? How they will use to express their siege role? Roots? How hourns will use roots as siege weapons? What kind of animations you suggest for this? Then, this means you suggest that hourn will be regular production unit? I don't like that to be honest. Simply it is not ent so it could walk, it is rooten tree which moves a lot slower and only in some particular situations. In my opinion hourns shouldn't be standard units, they should be unique and I like slave system with entmoot because it is in my opinion the most reasonable one from lore facts.
It is easy to suggest main purpose, we need details so we could make final concept which has some value.

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 23. Nov 2015, 22:55 von CragLord »

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #25 am: 23. Nov 2015, 22:19 »
Isn't Dark Galadriel a melee hero, therefore absolutely not capable of dealing with real defenses and thus no siege unit any more? This would BTW also be a problem for Huorns because if they are melee a fire bunker destroys them and if they are ranged I don't really see the point of them replacing the Ents in the first place. ;)
Not that I don't like the huorns, your ideas actually made me think about them a lot to the point that I myself did a little brainstorming about possible concepts, but such a change isn't really wise if you ask me.
What I however don't like are those roots: First of all, Lothlorien and too many cc-effects are a complete no-go for me -the archer faction really needs a weakness and being able to root, snare, slow, stun and fear the crap out of poor enemy forces giving them no chance at all ever to reach Lothlorien's troops would be a conceptual nightmare. I also don't see any room for such cc-effects, because Lorien already has a good amout of them or of other safe mechanisms. Secondly I know Old Man Willow did imprison some of the hobbits, but those idiots were leaning against his trunk. xD Being able to root entire groups of people on the move is just over the top in my opinion, to the point where I'd ask myself why the hell the huorn wouldn't just murder the trapped units by strangling or crushing their victims if it obviouly has the ability of growing vines and roots at such a speed, it can trap moving forces. Nevertheless, the first point is more important. :)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Odysseus

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #26 am: 23. Nov 2015, 23:42 »
Regarding your first point,

Dark Galadriel's attack against buildings remains the same. Her standard attack against infantry is changed to a more melee oriented attack, as you say. However, she also receives a mini-earthquake to deal with structures. If anything, that mini-eaerthquake could use some love, but that is for another topic.

About the Entmoot: As it stands, the Entmoot can repair itself if left alone for a while. This is quite a big thing. Imagine a level 2-3 Siege Works that can repair itself. Additionally, its hitbox is strangely...off; making it harder to be destroyed in close combat. I think the structure is fine as it is, but if it really needs to be done in some way, I'd advise the building to level up through production, like the Beorning hut, and then at level 2 or 3, defensive Huorn creeps could aid in protecting it. That way, your heavy investments could be rewarded further. Like an arrow tower.

Personally, I think the proposal is being overdone a little. It's like we are seeking some way to justify the Huorns simply as an addition. In that sense, as the Beornings have been nerfed, their hut is more fragile now too, and along that path it should have a way to defend itself as well, in my opinion. Bee creeps, pretty please. Either both, or none, I suppose.

Either way, I would like to wait before we change such a thing about Lothlorien. The faction has been out for less than a month; the Entmoot being able to repair itself quickly should be more than enough. Players have to better comprehend where and when to specifically build an entmoot.

Just my two cents.
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CragLord

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #27 am: 25. Nov 2015, 16:39 »
About Galadriel attack you get info from Odysseus. About Galadriel Dark form and Huorn it was just random thought as I can see. It was linked by corrupted nature so proposal was a logical from that aspect, but as you can see I was also against that. Huorns are mainly here proposed as some kind of defence for Entmoot, not as regular siege unit so far. It is proposed maybe, but that proposal have a lot of missing parts, so, no too much to say about it. And we should try to polish this to some good level. :)

I agree that Lorien has a lot of side effect as faction, but you globalized this proposal to some higher level.
First, proposal about stances, as you could read in previous comments, it is mostly defensive mechanism for Entmoot, no matter what stance we choose. So I really don't understand you when you globalized this as those Hourns will be able to walk with army and use their stances in first front of battle. Simply this is reserved for defence of Entmoot, so don't globalize this to entire faction and those capabilities you described. There will be improvement but not in measure you describe.
If those proposals are too OP, simply we should try to make them less OP, not to reject them in some way. Simply that is my opinion about discussion in general. :) 

Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general. :)
Don't mind me wrong, but this is not first time, I read something from your comment and then I realize you are taking so much facts from real life. :)
It is proposal, and yes it is possible for talking tree which is able to move. In this world we can propose I think that kind of "magic being" is capable of using their roots to share enemies and trap them. It was matter of concept mainly man, and you are refering to speed of growth. xD It is irrelevant ascertainment...
For the end, to be clear I would like those huorns as some kind of defensive mechanisam for Entmoot, and in same time I am trying to combine all lore facts we have about them, and that is why we suggested Old Willow and those abilities of sleepy song etc
I think it will be nice to think in this way, thats all. :)

Concerning Entmoot repair, I haven't used that in concideration, but that is not big thing, expecially if we take into consideration that "its hitbox is strangely...off" should be fixed, because it is not reasonable to be able of repairing while it is attacked. I don't know is this bug, but anyway it should be changed, so its hitbox is on? I think it should be changed. Entmoot isn't gate or structure in process of building so hitbox is off.
If that is gonna be changed, then Entmoot has problem from defensive aspect. I think that current situation with hitbox is not right or logical.
Also I like your proposal about production leveling and of course you are for that huorn upgrade on higher level. I am fine with that, I was also thinking about it, it is really reasonable suggestion. Just what are you suggested for them? To have stance system or to be as builing part, not selectable? Something as Crimson King suggested in his last comment.
Yes, suggestion is maybe overdone, but some thoughts are important so we could polish suggestion in general. :) I agree that Lothlorien is pretty new and young as faction but this don't have to be instant proposal for next patch, simply take care about that. Maybe people here think that this will implemented right away if someone like it, but it is long process in the most cases, so I am encouraging futher development, and I call experienced members in gameplay term to leave their opinion mostly in balance way if this is concerning you or rest of members from this discussion.
I must say, balance things as cost of upgrade and similar (not these on which you are refering) should be left for the end of concept.
I will see when I find time to make comment with preview of all suggestions so far, or Necromancer can do that by editing his first comment. To be clear about all proposals. :)

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Nov 2015, 21:18 von CragLord »

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #28 am: 25. Nov 2015, 20:49 »
OP has been edited, tell me if I have missed anything
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Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Ents
« Antwort #29 am: 25. Nov 2015, 21:44 »
@CragLord:
You are right. Just as guardians of the Ent Moot this is of course no real problem.
Zitat
Melkor, I had some impression that you too much involving reality in general. :)
About that: You might be right about this, but I see it a little different: It's not so much about reality (in which moving trees obviously don't exist), but about consistency (in which there are no roots which first grow extremely fast, catching moving people, but than can't just grow further crushing them). ;) I hope you see the difference, because just realism is of course not important in a fantasy world. However even a fantasy world has its rules and must follow them, otherwise it would be just a random mess of randomness. xD Like nobody would like it if suddenly aliens invade Middle-Earth: Just as unreal as moving trees, but completely inconsistent. ;)

I'm not really sure, what the repair stuff is about, normal buildings do repair themselves if left unchecked, so why not the Ent Moot? :o

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir