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Autor Thema: Guards of Orthanc  (Gelesen 29116 mal)

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Guards of Orthanc
« am: 19. Nov 2015, 11:14 »
GUARDS OF ORTHANC

So, after the debate progressed towards a quite definitive and interesting concept, I decided to edit the first post of this thread and to showcase the final concept we have come up with, in order to give it the prominence it deserves. I will list the people in favour of or against this proposal at the end of the description of the very concept, so that it will be much easier for me to organise things in the most ordered way possible; I'm also going to translate the proposal in German and thus bring it to the German Community's attention too. Should anyone want to read the original content of this post, just browse the content at the end of the comment that was hidden via the spoiler feature. Needless to say, other hints or ideas about the topic are still well welcome.


In the game: Another upgrade is added to the citadel of Isengard. The new upgrade unlocks the ability to summon the Guards of Orthanc. Once the ability is unlocked, you just have to click on it once and about 10 guards pour out of the citadel. They stay for about 30 seconds and can't be selected; they just roam around the citadel (as wild units of a lair). It takes 5 minutes to recharge the ability. Initially, even if armed with Númenórean armoury, the guards' appearance is wilder than the one of common noble guards and it is characterised by a corrupted/marred element; then, once Wizard's Tower is purchased, they will acquire a new mightier armour (increasing their attack and defence) and their wooden spears will change shape to mirror Orthanc (as it's shown in the picture).

A bit of lore (a possible interpretation): Only Saruman knows the true origin of his guards, while common knowledge relies on forgotten tales, which either tell of their past noble ancestry (due to their mysterious armour) or of their wild background (given their feared cruelty).


Saruman is accounted in the lore to dispose of human guards, whose duty is exactly the patrolling of the very ring of walls of Isengard and the defence of Orthanc itself. Gandalf encounters the guards directly and informs us of their existence during the Council of Elrond, while reminiscing the treason of Saruman. The Grey Pilgrim is captured and held captive by those very sentinels.

Zitat
‘Late one evening I came to the gate, like a great arch in the wall of rock; and it was strongly guarded. But the keepers of the gate were on the watch for me and told me that Saruman awaited me. I rode under the arch, and the gate closed silently behind me, and suddenly I was afraid, though I knew no reason for it.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond

Zitat
They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond

As inferred in the following contributions, the human servants at Saruman's disposal might be related to the Númenóreans that had established the fortress in the Second Age or to people nonetheless coming from Gondor. Saruman was always held in high consideration by both Elves and Men, of whom the latter were fascinated by the Istar's wide-ranging knowledge and industrious attitude (and we know that the White Wizard is well acquainted with arcane arts). Given his very authoritative profile and the fact that he had chosen to lead the White Council as the chief of the Wise, with the task to defend the Free People from the awakening shadows, it's legitimate to speculate that some Númenóreans may have remained there to serve him; once Saruman took residence in a stable place, the presence of those said guards would symbolise power and authority indeed.

The implementation of such feature will undoubtedly serve as a clever addition to Isengard's differentiation, alongside feeding from absolutely canonical elements. What ought to be provided yet are some indications concerning the graphical appearance of the guards. Regardless of that, I deem the proposal quite complete and thus worthy of being presented as the main suggestion of the thread. May I thank Fredius and The Witch-King of Angmar, in particular, for their precious insights that seem to have permitted the concept to skyrocket towards the just compromise  ;)

FOR

Lord of Mordor (in favour of the general idea of Orthanc Guards)
DieWalküre
Fredius
Odysseus
OakenShield22
The Witch-King of Angmar
Melkor Bauglir
Julio229
DrHouse93
Gandalf7000
Garlodur
Eomer der Verbannte
Firímar
lordoflinks
makis89
40Fixxer
Slawek56703
The_Necromancer0
-DJANGO-
Mr.Todd
AmosVogel
Fine
Ectheldir
lord_ellessar
Beautiful Darkness
FilipGeorg95
ljosdos
AulëTheSmith
NoldorSithLordsShipwrigh t
dkbluewizard
Canis carcharothias
Fürst der Nazgûl


AGAINST


Edited by DieWalküre
« Letzte Änderung: 1. Jun 2017, 15:08 von DieWalküre »
Sup :P

hoho96

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #1 am: 19. Nov 2015, 15:02 »
Though the unit concept is cool and i like them a lot in TATW, I'm not sure how could they be translated to bfme. Isengard is probably the least faction lacking in late game. They don't really have any major weaknesses and the lategame Uruk fighters + upgraded shields combo is one of the most devistating in the game xD

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #2 am: 20. Nov 2015, 08:31 »
Though the unit concept is cool and i like them a lot in TATW, I'm not sure how could they be translated to bfme. Isengard is probably the least faction lacking in late game. They don't really have any major weaknesses and the lategame Uruk fighters + upgraded shields combo is one of the most devistating in the game xD


Perhaps they can just make this unit a map feature (For the map isengard)                                :P
Sup :P

dkbluewizard

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #3 am: 18. Dez 2016, 19:47 »
I love this concept, if Isengard is going to have a unit, it should be these guys. Maybe incorporate them with the Isengard army spell, accept they are the only ones that stay, or, have Saruman summon them by when he upgrades the Uruk pit. Maybe while Saruman is in the wizards tower he can upgrade a uruk pit and that is how these troops are built.
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The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #4 am: 25. Dez 2016, 19:12 »
Nice idea, those units will be a nice touch on Isengard, but Isengard is already good at middle game and very good at end game, so i dont think its a good idea to give them more strong units, but i have a good idea that may fit, i will tell you what is it after few lines.

incorporate them with the Isengard army spell, accept they are the only ones that stay, or, have Saruman summon them by when he upgrades the Uruk pit. Maybe while Saruman is in the wizards tower he can upgrade a uruk pit and that is how these troops are built.
I disagree with you, these units main role should be defending the Citadel so having them in Isengard unleashed is not right, and its wrong to have them recruited from the uruk pit because they are men.
 
So my idea is you can get them by an upgrade from the citadel to have them standing around it and defending it and they will be uncontrolable just like how the goblins defend thier buildings or how the rangers defend their tents, this idea fits very good with the lore since saruman wanted these guys to stay near Orthanc and be his body gaurds, and maybe we can add the following: when you recruit saruman, they will leave the citedal and stay around him to protect him and of caurse they will still be uncontrolable.
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Dez 2016, 19:16 von The Witch-King of Angmar »

Lord of Mordor

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #5 am: 25. Dez 2016, 19:24 »
Is there actually an official canon source for elite human Orthanc guards? Or were they created by Third Age: Total War? If they did exist in the original story, I agree that could be a good fit for Isengard's heroic unit.
« Letzte Änderung: 25. Dez 2016, 20:25 von Lord of Mordor »
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Fredius

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #6 am: 25. Dez 2016, 21:30 »
From what I remember in the books Gandalf was taken prisoner by Saruman on top of Orthanc. The guards who arrested him were humans.

OakenShield224

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #7 am: 25. Dez 2016, 21:45 »
In the books, Gandalf talks about guards that closed the doors after he came in and made him nervous. I think that, when the hobbits found Saruman's storeroom with the food and pipeweed, they thought it for Saruman and his human guards as it was too good to waste on orcs.

Odysseus

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #8 am: 25. Dez 2016, 22:39 »
Do Isengard really need heroic units though? Sorry to be a stick in the mud, but I am genuinely curious. As far as I know, Isengard is overwhelmingly powerful in the lategame, and that is without a heroic unit. The only way I see a place for a heroic unit in Isengard, is if those Guards are spawned by an ability or power when Saruman is garrisoned in his tower and thus mostly serve defensive purposes as Witch-King said. Otherwise, they seem to just be an addition for the sake of an addition, because Isengard has shown itself to be just fine otherwise, with clearly defined powerspikes in the game.

I think Isengard is one of the best designed factions in the mod, so I am reluctant to change things about it. The changes in the spellbook (rightly) nerfed its economic powers, but otherwise, I think the faction is in a solid state and adding a heroic unit would add a factor with a myriad of (potential) balance problems.

Just my two cents.
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Walküre

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #9 am: 26. Dez 2016, 00:50 »
Under a purely source-based perspective, I can confirm the previous comments. As I too remembered, it is told in the books that Saruman does have human servants at his service, of which some are exactly appointed to guard Isengard or to serve as vicious spies.

Zitat
‘Late one evening I came to the gate, like a great arch in the wall of rock; and it was strongly guarded. But the keepers of the gate were on the watch for me and told me that Saruman awaited me. I rode under the arch, and the gate closed silently behind me, and suddenly I was afraid, though I knew no reason for it.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond

Zitat
They took me and they set me alone on the pinnacle of Orthanc, in the place where Saruman was accustomed to watch the stars.
J.R.R. Tolkien - The Fellowship of the Ring: The Council of Elrond

Julio229

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #10 am: 26. Dez 2016, 02:27 »
Having read this, I sort of agree that Isengard doesn't really need a late-game heroic unit, but I still feel something could be done. I always felt the Dunland subfaction is lacking something, and in the mod there is an horde called "DunlandSchlachter" (Sorry if there's a mistake in the name, my German is rusty :P), only available in the worldbuilder.

My idea is, what if that unit got implemented in the Dunland subfaction, either replacing the Spearmen (Which would be recruitable in the Dunland building), making it a counterpart to Hwaldar's Bone Crushers, or as a standard Heroic unit in the Dunland building, but being more of an auxiliary unit to the main army, like the Beornings (At least that's how I use the Beornings)? I think it could be a nice way to add a little more to Dunland, and to have a Heroic unit in Isengard without being overpowered.

I'd love to read people's thoughts on this!


Fredius

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #11 am: 26. Dez 2016, 14:18 »
If Orthanc had a human guard (which is already confirmed by multiple people here), then I'd imagine them to be a heavy armored elite unit. The Dunland Schlachter looks more like an oversized barbarian, and that doesn't really fit the picture. Making the guard a full hero unit is a bit too much as well. I personally think making them a summonable power from the citadel (with a timer) would be a good way to get them, so that spam factions like Rohan can be dealt with a bit easier.

Here is the idea: the citadel of Isengard can buy upgrades as you might know, we can add another upgrade to it that unlocks the ability to summon the Orthanc Guard. Once the ability is unlocked, you just have to click on it once, and about 10 guards pour out of the citadel. They stay for about 30 seconds, and can't be selected; they just roam around the citadel (basically like creeps). It takes 5 minutes to recharge the ability. What do you think?

Walküre

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #12 am: 26. Dez 2016, 14:46 »
If Orthanc had a human guard (which is already confirmed by multiple people here), then I'd imagine them to be a heavy armored elite unit. The Dunland Schlachter looks more like an oversized barbarian, and that doesn't really fit the picture.

I agree. In a sense, that characterisation could function as a sort of linkage to the Númenórean ancestry of those guards and of Isengard itself. Given that the domain was handed over to Saruman by Gondor, I guess that some of the guards that later remained to serve the new master were/are related to the lineage of the Númenóreans equally. It's also an interesting element of differentiation to add to the faction, alongside being very lore-accurate.

I like the proposal of Fredius too, as I view it as a proper way to make this hypothetical unit a momentary feature, with a secondary role, in conjunction with the other prominent and well-known concepts of the faction  :)

Odysseus

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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #13 am: 26. Dez 2016, 15:25 »
Indeed, Fredius' concept is what I had in mind as well. It would make the most sense to me and it would also probably be the easiest to balance. It's the only way I see this work, if we would really ever need this unit.
« Letzte Änderung: 26. Dez 2016, 19:23 von Odysseus »
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Re: Isengard's hero unit
« Antwort #14 am: 26. Dez 2016, 16:07 »
The citadel of Isengard can buy upgrades as you might know, we can add another upgrade to it that unlocks the ability to summon the Orthanc Guard. Once the ability is unlocked, you just have to click on it once, and about 10 guards pour out of the citadel. They stay for about 30 seconds, and can't be selected; they just roam around the citadel (basically like creeps). It takes 5 minutes to recharge the ability. What do you think?
Exactly how it should be, maybe if they had a timer then its a better to have them controlable or they can be uncontrolable but permanent as i mentioned in early comment, however i am okay with it either ways.