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Autor Thema: Guards of Orthanc  (Gelesen 8108 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #30 am: 29. Dez 2016, 15:54 »
Thank you for the great reception so far. It really pleases me. Also, I translated the proposal in German and people there have appreciated the canonical essence of the concept indeed. As a German user pointed out, we still need to address graphical matters concerning the very appearance of the Guards of Orthanc. In the German forum, they proposed a Gondor-like resemblance (to symbolise Isengard's past as a stronghold of that Númenórean realm), to which the vessel of the White Hand might be added. I then suggested the look of the units be made a bit corrupted/marred (to show their allegiance to the evil cause and moral corruption equally).

I agree with those insights. I think it's quite essential that these units be still close to their Númenórean/human ancestry. Feel free to propose other suggestions. New ideas are wholeheartedly welcome here  ;)

Slawek56703

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #31 am: 29. Dez 2016, 16:07 »
Zitat
Then I realised that Saruman has this useless ability when in his upgraded Wizard Tower at level 3: Power of Speech is supposed to upgrade recruitment buildings but with the centralised system of upgrading since 4.0 this has no utility whatsoever.

+1 this ability is no longer needed with Isengard system
 
+1 to the whole idea

« Letzte Änderung: 3. Jan 2017, 17:48 von Slawek56703 »

Fredius

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #32 am: 29. Dez 2016, 17:56 »
As a German user pointed out, we still need to address graphical matters concerning the very appearance of the Guards of Orthanc. In the German forum, they proposed a Gondor-like resemblance (to symbolise Isengard's past as a stronghold of that Númenórean realm), to which the vessel of the White Hand might be added. I then suggested the look of the units be made a bit corrupted/marred (to show their allegiance to the evil cause and moral corruption equally).

So to continue on the matter of appearance of our little guards, I have a couple of suggestions for it. First of all, let's start with the resemblance with Gondor. Eventhough I agree that the units should have similarities with Gondor, we shouldn't forget that there is no 1 type of Gondorian Armor, especially in this mod. While the standard Gondorian soldiers have the armor which we see in the movies, the warriors from the Southern Fiefdoms all have different types of armor, with some not even resembling the standard Gondorian armor at all (at least in Edain mod). I can imagine that Isengard was no different from the Fiefdoms on this matter, so it should have at max a very small resemblance, but not more, to the Gondorian standard armor.

Now then, I was searching on Google Images for armor that, in my opinion, would fit the Guards of Orthanc very well. Sadly I couldn't find THE perfect image :P, however there are 2 that caught my attention. Firstly, we have the Guards of Orthanc from the Third Age Total War mod, which the maker of the thread already proposed. Here is the screenshot again just in case:


The helmet style resembles the Gondorian ones a little bit, but with that the similarities end, which is fine by me. If I were to choose a type of armor for the Guards, I would choose this one. However! Since Saruman didn't become corrupted in one day, I think the armor itself should become a little bit more wicked, to show that these men have become corrupted as well. Perhaps some rust stains here and there, or some pointy parts in the shoulder pads and helmet.

The second armor I would propose is a whole lot different from the first one:


This was one of the results when I googled "numenorean armor". Ofcourse, there have to be made some changes here and there. For example, the golden influences on the armor should be removed, and the breast plate should have a white hand on it. The helmet could use a small Orthanc crest on top of it. Perhaps the cape can be removed as well.

What do you think?

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #33 am: 29. Dez 2016, 22:42 »
Thank you for the graphical insights, Fred. In my personal opinion, I found the first image too much armour-based, in the sense that it resembles in my mind the fully-armoured Uruk-hai too much, and those units symbolise the final conversion of Isengard to industry and the achievement of its true warfare potential (as the game progresses).

So, in light of the above-mentioned considerations, I deem the second concept a possible solution (in conjunction with the needed graphical changes of the case). That would show the Númenórean legacy of the guards, while exposing at the same time their marred nature and corruption. Henceforth, I'm for a marred version of the second image: corrupted remnants of a past which is no more. And it's also quite interesting how all the properties of this proposal relate to the whole corruption theme of the faction so well (on top of all, the treason of Saruman).

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #34 am: 30. Dez 2016, 09:46 »
Thank you for the graphical insights, Fred. In my personal opinion, I found the first image too much armour-based, in the sense that it resembles in my mind the fully-armoured Uruk-hai too much, and those units symbolise the final conversion of Isengard to industry and the achievement of its true warfare potential (as the game progresses).
I agree with Walküre that they should not have heavy armor as Uruk-hai, i tried to draw the guards to share my thoughts with you guys on how they should look like, i drawed this in a hurry on paint so sorry for the bad quality xD 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/201760955514748938/264311465115254784/Gaurds_of_Orthanc.jpg

As you can see there is no armor on the chest or legs, while the shoulder armor and the helmet resemble Gondor armor, but they are darker now, i think the team can add a nice touch on them too and maybe they can use the easterlings animations, what do guys think?

EDIT: I saw a post from Melkor on the german post, saying they should not have anything to do with "Númenor, Gondor or the like", i translated that topic using google translate so maybe there is some errors i will post it here so someone can tell me if the translation is right or not

"As I said Yes to the guards .
For God's sake no to any memory of Númenor, Gondor or the like ! Of all the historical arguments that would come to mind, I would like to list only one thing: Isengard is currently the design "smoothest" people at all, which means for me that optically simply perfectly interlocks. There is the dirty industrial feeling, standardized armor, metalworking, etc. Since suddenly gondore elements in it would be noticeable as a colorful dog, it just fits visually as little to Isengard as a Morgulfestung. (Well, that would be even more striking"

I am a total noob when it comes to the books, so my question is: are we assuming they are Numenorians? is there an evidence? if they are not Numenorians then i think we must not make them ones.
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Dez 2016, 10:29 von The Witch-King of Angmar »

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #35 am: 30. Dez 2016, 19:32 »
I am a total noob when it comes to the books, so my question is: are we assuming they are Numenorians? is there an evidence? if they are not Numenorians then i think we must not make them ones.

If you browse my previous comments, you will see that I already gave my personal insights about why these guards should be of a Númenórean lineage (even though of a remote one) and that I explained a possible interpretation of the lore of said units. The problem is that the sources don't clarify exactly the nature of Saruman's sentinels and so permit us to move around a quite wide space of speculation. In brief words: one could suggest they be Númenóreans, as much as one another could legitimately propose something completely different.

So, the point I would address to back my thesis is uniqueness. Would it be more unique to dispose of particular units that relate to Isengard's past and to an even greater legacy, or to simply add other mere wild servants (that, by the way, resemble units already present in the faction)? In respect of Saruman's authoritative status, Isengard's legacy and of the other arguments of mine, that Númenórean touch would help the faction concretely, under many perspectives. I thus disagree with Melkor, which is really a very rare event...  xD

By the way, I like the image you crafted. With a bit more corruption, this could be a very clever addition. Nice art!

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #36 am: 30. Dez 2016, 21:09 »
By the way, I like the image you crafted. With a bit more corruption, this could be a very clever addition. Nice art!
Thank you for your kind words :), i now understand your point of view, there is a point that make me disagree and i want your opinion about it, when Edain Team removed the snow trolls and limited the hit trolls(for the sake of the fans) from Angmar they said one of the reasons they did this because there was already 2 factions having trolls which is affecting the uniqueness of other factions, and i see the same problem with this case, there are already 2 factions contain the Númenóreans as heroic units [Mordor ,Angmar] (Mordor's Elite horsemen who can be recruited from minath morgol outpost and Angmar Mightiest evil men the black knights and the black guards) and i see those 2 factions have a higher priority to have these units way more than Isengard, Isengard  is specialized in The heavy strong Uruk-hais as its best fighting machines, why giving even an "important evil units Descend from higher legacy" to Isengard and Saruman who are already great on their own? not to forget those new units should not be as strong as the Uruk-hai in the game so i am not sure if they are worthy, they are basically just early/middle game defense unites, however i think we should also consider taking a look at TATW's description over these units and see if we can get any ideas or something useful i will past it here so everybody can take a look:

"Dunlendings handpicked by Saruman to guard Isengard have a mixed heritage as they can trace a part of their bloodline to the old Gondorian garrison that watched over the fortress in the early Third Age. During the Great Plague of 1636 Gondor's hold on the Gap of Rohan (not yet known as such during that time) weakened and the hereditary chieftains of Isengard intermingled with the local Dunlendings until Gondor's influence in the region completely disappeared. After a prolonged conflict with the Rohirrim Dunlendings were eventually driven out of Isengard by King Frealaf of Rohan. Now that Saruman has become the new master of Orthanc he has opened the gates of Isenguard to Dunlending loyalists once more. These men have a vested interest in preserving their new position as Guardians of Orthanc since their service to Saruman affords them greater rewards, status and safety within the walls. Unlike their less organized fellow tribesmen they train to fight as heavy infantry in defensive close order. Their thick armour is provided by Isengard's forges and shows some Gondorian influence in its design. These Dunlending custodians of Isengard are tough men who add another layer to Isengard's already almost impenetrable defenses."

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #37 am: 30. Dez 2016, 22:57 »
It's exactly because this proposal would add a minor feature to the faction (non-playable units that patrol the citadel's perimeter for a given amount of time) that I felt to suggest the involvement of the Númenóreans' lore. Otherwise, I would never dare to suggest highly improbable eventualities, as Númenóreans (the real and 'pure' ones) being normally available as permanent units. I guess no one would like such outcome, and I have in fact made these premises very clear in my contributions to the concept. It's thus essential to consider the secondary role of this whole feature, whenever one might want to express a general judgment about the faction as well (how these units would fit in the gameplay and so on).

Connecting with the points above, the limited and temporary properties of the very concept make the comparison with other factions quite incorrect, since, concerning Mordor and Angmar, we're talking about true heroic units (implemented in a much simpler way than the clever mechanics we have discussed so far). The cases are so different that I can't see any issue regarding uniqueness arising for the reasons you referred to. The typology of implementation of the Guards of Orthanc is unique by itself (left aside their supposedly Númenórean ancestry). While Isengard can already make well usage of Dunlendings as a stable presence.

Is that quotation the official interpretation of the Third Age Total War Mod? I would nonetheless stick to my own opinions, given that the fact that those people were later welcomed by Saruman (as an additional defence) doesn't deny the possibility that loyal Númenóreans (who had been guarding Isengard since the 'merry' days of Saruman as the chief of the White Council) may have chosen to remain and to fully embrace their master's decay. The very description hints at the influence that Gondor (Númenórean culture) had on Isengard itself  ;)

I myself often have a kind of antiquarian mindset, which almost automatically makes me fall in love with things or concepts that have a strong linkage to a mysterious (usually lost) or noble past. I also picture proposals of this kind as a decent way to honour Arda's memories; therefore, whenever I envisage the just occasion, I always try to favour and work on said past-based proposals. As Isengard totally converts itself to the new religion of industry, these guards would still represent traces of a time that was.

Fredius

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #38 am: 30. Dez 2016, 23:17 »
I will let you lore-monsters decide on the matter if these guys should have Numenorean ancestry or not :P. On graphical matters; I love your design Witch-King, especially the helmet which resembles the form of the top of Orthanc (I think). Though that spear is a bit too "generic" for Middle-Earth, I would give it a different look ;). I will try to search for an image of a spear that complements your design.

Edit: While searching for different polearm designs, I came upon this:


I was thinking on the fourth one from the left. I'd imagine that the guards would wear some kind of ceremonial spear, that slightly resembles the tower of Orthanc. I think it would complement the helmet you drew very well. What do you guys think?
« Letzte Änderung: 30. Dez 2016, 23:41 von Fredius »

dkbluewizard

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #39 am: 31. Dez 2016, 03:52 »
Love it Fredius!
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.

The Witch-King of Angmar

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #40 am: 31. Dez 2016, 09:37 »
Thanks Fredius i am glad you like it, tho i agree with you about the spear it would be better if it resembles orthanc however the one you picked( fourth one from the left ) look more like the iron crown to me :D, i tried to draw a spear that resembles Orthanc and this is what i came up with:




What do you think?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I see your points Walküre, and yes that is TATW's official description on these unites, which i think fits for them, however your idea is not bad either so i think i will wait and let the team decide, and what they pick up will be fine by me.
« Letzte Änderung: 31. Dez 2016, 09:48 von The Witch-King of Angmar »

Walküre

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #41 am: 31. Dez 2016, 11:14 »
I see your points Walküre, and yes that is TATW's official description on these unites, which i think fits for them, however your idea is not bad either so i think i will wait and let the team decide, and what they pick up will be fine by me.

Or, we could always bring our lore debate into the very game, via expedients of this sort: only Saruman knows the true origin of his guards, while common knowledge relies on forgotten tales, which either tell of their past noble ancestry (due to their mysterious armour) or of their wild background (given their feared cruelty)  ;)

Whatever the decision of the Edain Team shall be, I would like to thank you very much for your precious contribution to the debate! The image you crafted is marvellous, and it already gives that Númenórean touch I talked about, even if lost in Arda's past. I will add the picture to the official proposal at the beginning of the thread  :)

And, most importantly, I will inform the German forum of the graphical design we finally came up with.

The_Necromancer0

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #42 am: 1. Jan 2017, 14:31 »
I am also for this proposal
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Garlodur

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #43 am: 2. Jan 2017, 00:22 »
Great concept drawing The Witch-King of Angmar! I didn't know Paint worked so well when it comes to making drawings.

I really like the polearm design, as they very much resemble the Orthanc spires as well as Saruman's staff.

Still though, apart from the earlier suggestion of adding rust and tear-and-wear to the armour, I would suggest to give these Guardians more of a wilder look, also to correspond with the Wildmen background. Reason is that this culture has been more of an influence on them than an ancient, noble, Gondorian-Númenórean background in which personal hygiene is well appreciated. I realise that Tolkien never mentioned the differences in ´cultural sophistication´ among the Edain (from Low to Middle to High Men), but the movie design for the Wildmen of Dunland has chosen to make them savaged men living in primitive conditions. On the other hand I understand the possibility of the Guardians to have higher living standards although they are Low Men (just like Easterlings and Haradrim who have undoubtedly created widespread civilisation in lands to the South and East) but the Wildmen were driven from their lands in Calenardhon (Rohan) and have supposedly lost much of their civilisation.

In any case, perhaps the design should lie exactly in between the massively produced Uruk-Hai armour and the Wildmen interpretation. The Guardians would have uncombed, long beards, long hair (perhaps without helmets), with skin showing in some parts of the armour. The design for Zaphragor could be a good start.

What do you think?

dkbluewizard

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Re: Guards of Orthanc
« Antwort #44 am: 3. Jan 2017, 08:20 »
Garlodur, as you know I approach everything with a canonical mindset. So in this regard I agree with you totally. They should have more of an up class/Wildmen look to them. This is Tolkien's intent and it makes sense. You have my vote should it come to it.
Outside of Lord of the Rings, I am pretty sure Vengeance of Valdorian & Leoj's Wrath are the best novels I have read.