[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] Lothlorien Suggestions

Aesthetic Improvements for Lothlórien/Mirkwood

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Walküre:
Very interesting debate.

Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien and its 'supreme' guide.
But, the particular thing is that she is herself an exception in her realm (compared also to other realms), being the greatest Noldo left in Middle Earth (and one of the greatest in general as a member of the original Noldorin Royal Family of Aman) yet being as well at the head of a realm mainly formed by Elves of another ethnicity and with another millennial tradition as it is the one of the Sindar.

Galadriel is the source of all the holiness of Lórien and sustains its integrity against the enemies and the action of Time; but I always regarded her as someone different from all the common visions we could have of a Ruler/King/Queen/Monarch intended as the head of the realm and personification of its whole history and culture.

She kind of exits these common schemes becoming indeed a real exception in Middle Earth, being not the 'regular' and traditional military and 'political' leader, but more a sort of stranger and ethereal divine being come from far mysterious lands as an Angel among mortals, and in the Tolkien I think that we have plenty of proofs that could determine this sort of exceptional condition, from the Years of the Trees to the 'current' War of the Ring'.

That's why I always see Celeborn as the true traditional and political leader of Lothlórien, being himself a military and political leading figure among his people and an important figure in the Sindarin tradition as once a royal member of the court of Elwë in Doriath (and that's why he eventually meets with Thranduil at the end of the War to redetermine the new borders of the greater woodland kingdoms of Lórien and Mirkwood, symbolising indeed his 'administrative' status as a political and military ruler).

Therefore, thinking that the fundamental and holy presence of Galadriel (yet consisting in an exception as written above) may infuse the realm of Lórien of any specific and particular Noldorin aspect in its history and culture would be a mistake, I guess.
The realm of Lórien is not 'intended' to carry on or be a representative of the millennial Noldorin culture and Memory Middle Earth, nor is it really characterised by significant Noldorin traits as the past real Noldorin realms.

Rivendell might legitimately be considered the 'keeper' of every Noldor-related elements left in Middle Earth, and the very few Elven settlements of Lindon as well.
But just not Lothlórien, since it carries on the equally great and millennial tradition of the Sindar/Nandor of Middle Earth.

Then, I support the change of the spell's title, currently suitable more for Rivendell than this faction.
But, I would also oppose to any involvement of Galadriel in it.
The strength of Galadriel and its relationship with her people is something really magical and unique, different from the other common examples that we have though great they could be  :)

CragLord:
Well said, Walk. :)

I agree that Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien, and holy leader of those elves, and that Celeborn is their more traditionally oriented leader.
No matter of Galadriel's influence on them, I really find (as I have described in detail in previous comment of mine) general title Horn of Ñoldor as inappropriate one for Galadrim Elves.
I will just once more underline something about this.
I think that current visual change I suggested is perfect because of freedom it gives.
First, it is obviously "herald" of Galadriel, because of that banner with her standard. But that doesn't mean it is Horn of Ñoldor, or it has any connections with Ñoldors, no matter to her ancestry.
In that time she is "holy" ruler of Lothlórien, so it is official horn of Lothlórien with standard of their "holy" leader. :) Nothing more in my opinion. :) Same is with their official banner. It is banner, it is not banner of Ñoldors, it is official banner of Lothlórien elves and it has Galadriel's standard on it as I have pointed out, and showed on picture. :)
Lindon's (Ereinion's one also), Imladris banners those are Ñoldor's official banners in Middle Earth (just for lore comparison). :)
In that way of thinking we could suggested new visual change as proper official "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn".

Greetings,
CragLord

Walküre:

--- Zitat von: CragLord am 30. Nov 2015, 14:08 ---Well said, Walk. :)

I agree that Galadriel is without a doubt the most powerful Elf of Lothlórien, and holy leader of those elves, and that Celeborn is their more traditionally oriented leader.
No matter of Galadriel's influence on them, I really find (as I have described in detail in previous comment of mine) general title Horn of Ñoldor as inappropriate one for Galadrim Elves.
I will just once more underline something about this.
I think that current visual change I suggested is perfect because of freedom it gives.
Fist, it is obviously "herald" of Galadriel, because of that banner with her standard. But that doesn't mean it is Horn of Ñoldor, or it has any connections with Ñoldors, no matter to her ancestry.
In that time she is "holy" ruler of Lothlórien, so it is official horn of Lothlórien with standard of their "holy" leader. :) Nothing more in my opinion. :) Same is with their official banner. It is banner, it is not banner of Ñoldors, it is official banner of Lothlórien elves and it has Galadriel's standard on it as I have pointed out, and showed on picture. :)
Lindon's (Ereinion's one also), Imladris banners those are Ñoldor's official banners in Middle Earth (just for lore comparison). :)
In that way of thinking we could suggested new visual change as proper official "Lothlórien Heraldic Horn".

Greetings,
CragLord


--- Ende Zitat ---

So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.

I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference  :)

I support a graphical change as well.
The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition  8-)

There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.

CragLord:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 30. Nov 2015, 15:42 ---
So, what if it were named something like 'Horn of the Sindar'?
Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin realm in the War of the Ring (not that there were many more left at that time) and the most legitimate keeper of the Sindar's tradition.

I think that it would definitely be an interesting and very suitable lore reference  :)

I support a graphical change as well.
The current picture just doesn't indicate me anything so Sindarin (or of the Woodland Elves in general).
What about using the symbol of Doriath or a similar Sindar-related one, also to pay a tribute to the legendary Sindarin Realm by definition  8-)

There are so much analogies that could be made between Doriath and Lothlórien, and Melian definitely symbolises as well the 'angelic exception' I referred to in my previous comment, obviously with more legitimacy being her a Maia, but also 'subjected' to the authority of the real political leader as Elwë truly was.




--- Ende Zitat ---

That is also reasonable suggestion. :)
Lothlórien is the most powerful Sindarin (I would say Telerin mainly) realm in the War of the Ring, of course mainly because of Lady of Light and her influence. :)
I want to say, that I like also this suggestion, and I have analyzed it in some way as you will see. :)
As we know first Elves who inhabited the woods of Lothlórien was mostly Silvan and Nandor elves. Later as you have said in second age, after destruction of Beleriand, many of the Sindar of Beleriand migrated eastward. Some of them inhabited woods of Lothlórien (or in that time woods of Laurelindórenan).
Sindar boosted culture of their Silvan relatives. Even Sindarin replaced official Silvan language. So influence on those elves by Sindar was great on them.
Later when last ruler of Sindar line die (Amroth drown in his attempt to reach Valinor), Galadriel and Celeborn guided those elves. Under their leadership, elves of Lothlórien prosper.
So when we sum all lore facts, "citizens" of Lothlórien in time of War of the Ring are mostly Silvan in origin (mixed with Sindar and Nandor) which were firstly influenced by Sindar culture and later guided by Lady of Light (and Celeborn ofc).
So there is enough reasons to call it Horn of Sindar but also there is enough reasons not to do so. Because of that I think that general name "Horn of Lothlórien" or similar title is the best. Simply they are mix of three Teleri families and there is no need to point out any of names of those families. They are know as Galadhrim, and they present Teleri mix. :) As Sindar inluenced them during second age, so Gladriel did in third age.
My intention here was to eliminate that Ñoldor term from title of power, as it was so general in my opinion of those elves and wrong. And I tried hardly to explain why I think it is wrong in general term of it (lore and identity...).
Now concerning visual change, I hardly disagree about Sindarin symbol. As I have said, picture I have suggested is official Horn of Lothlórien. And I think it is the best choice. First, finally I have found some horn which is elegant in shape and appearance, it is of elven taste (not some animal horn etc).
Second, there is small banner on it with sign of Galadriel. It is her official standard as ruler of Lothlórien (as I have said it is not correlated with her Ñoldor side), and it is present on official banner of those elves. So it is hard correlated with Lothlórien, and we should watch it in that way.
Horn look with that Galadriel standard doesn't indicate anything to Sindarin or Nandor or Silvan side of this elves, it indicates on Lothlórien as unity or them in moment of WotR.
Also concerning Tingol's standard, I think it is wrong, simply because there is no heir of Tingol to use that standard as heritage. Celeborn was maybe member of his court and noble of Doriath, but he wasn't his heir. So I think it is wrong from that aspect to use officail Elwe's standard in any term for Lothlórien. Simply if we had some offical standard of Celeborn, we could pointed that out and so pointed out Sindar side. But using Tingol's standards is wrong in my opinion. "Similar" situation with Galadriel, she is using her own standard as ruler of Lothlórien. She isn't using nothing similar to standard of Finarfin. Good example for comparison I think. :)
No matter of that opinion of mine I have created some version of this picture for "Horn of Sindar". I am against it!  xD  :D




In second version I used official standard of Tingol which is reconstructed from Tolkien scratch, that one you suggested isn't colored in right way. :)


I tried to use Sindarin in that picture, and I hope it is in good form and "meaning".
Again, I think it is not lore wise to use Tingol sign or to Sindar name about this suggestion. I have tried in first part of comment to describe that. :)
Also, Horn of Sindar is better then current name, and it is more lore wise. So if my initial proposal isn't good for team, I would recall on this one. After all there is enough lore facts to integrate this but I just think that global "Lothlorien" situation is just better.
So we have  second mini proposal also in some way about this if my statement is wrong about those Sindarin things. (Precautions from my side, I know that my knowledge about Elves isn't in your rank Walk. :P )

Edit: My "last" work about this:


I think that shape of horn with those notes is perfect as suggestion for this Elves who are 100% Telerin in origin, and they are known as music lovers in general, as Ñoldors were famous as craftmen etc. So I think this is my suggestion number one. :)

Best Regards,
Crag

Gandalf7000:
Hello! I have a proposal about Lothlorien warriors. I think they should have not just swords but shields as well. I found this picture in worldbuilder : http://www.hiveworkshop.com/forums/members/243153-albums7922-picture104235.jpg  that indicates that there already is such a model of elven warriors with shields. I mean, c'mon even orcs have shields, but elves don't?
 I found the quote from Lord of the rings wiki about the shields of silvan elves:

 "Shields were also used by the Elves and highly decorated in Elf-fashion, like their armour. Not much is described regarding shields, only that they were elaborate and protected the user well. Like most shields, they could be used as a weapon as well as a barrier. Unlike the shields used by Dwarves and Men, which were short and round, the Elven shields extended from neck to shin and thus offered premium protection from weapons that could be swung and thrown/fired."

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/lotr/images/4/43/Shield.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/180?cb=20080707150834&format=webp

It is said that elven skills at forging weapons and armor surpasses the race of men.

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