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Autor Thema: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn  (Gelesen 6419 mal)

Odysseus

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The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« am: 16. Dez 2015, 02:31 »
Good night people of Edain Mod,

After a small absence, I decided to signal my return with a few thoughts of mine on the Beorningerss and Grimbeorn, in how they currently perform. Some of these thoughts that I will share, might be shared by others, and I encourage those to share their thoughts as well. It will be a long and grueling post, but hopefully worth it [ugly].


Wait, there's more!


Any thoughts? Good or bad?

Thank you for bearing with me. I look forward to your replies!

Kindest regards.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Elite KryPtik

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #1 am: 16. Dez 2015, 13:32 »
I don't really understand where this idea of "light siege" came from. The Role that Beornings need to fulfill is that of an infantry heavy-hitter, who is also very good at harassing outer economy buildings. When people are looking to besiege an enemy camp or castle, they will get Ents, who bring all the siege that Lothlorien needs. People are not going to specifically get Beornings to attack an enemy base.

When Lothlorien was first released to the beta testers, Beornings fulfilled the same role as Berserkers, good at killing battalions of units. The issue was that they had huge knockback and AoE, and also murdered heroes, making them absurdly OP. For human form, I would like to see a small AoE attack returned to them without the knockback, since their attack speed is slower than berserkers, with lighter damage and extreme vulnerability to heroes like berserkers. Bear form should have trample and have a strong attack against single units, monsters and heroes. I personally think both forms should have trample immunity, but that's just me. With this method, in human form they could deal more damage against groups of units, but be countered by single units and heroes, while Bear form could be used to escape or focus down stronger single units.

Lothlorien really doesn't really have a great mass slayer hero right now, yes there's Galadriel, but due to her cost she rarely comes out till very late game, and her basic attack is the only mass slayer function, her abilities in the palantir are supportive in nature. Legolas only has 1 mass slayer power, the Arrow Wind, which takes forever to unlock, so he's out of the running. I think that Grimbeorn needs to fulfill the mass slayer role, it just makes the most sense, he has a giant battle axe and can become a bear.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #2 am: 16. Dez 2015, 15:40 »
Beornings are in a much better spot after patch 4.2.1, but in my opinion they there is still room for improvement. 

The only real problem I have with the Human form is how effective they are against heroes.  I'm not saying that scout heroes should be able to kill a beorning, because, after all, they do cost less.  However, when heros that cost around a price of 1500, for instance Gloin, can be taken down by 2 beornings, without being able to kill one of them before he is dead, there is a problem.  Yes, I know Gloin is a building destroyer, but considering his price is nearly double the price of 2 beornings, getting killed so easily isn't too fair in my opinion.  My suggestion would be too reduce the damage Beornings do against heroes, and increase the Damage they take from heroes.  I don't thing these changes should be too big, but enough where heroes at least have a chance.

Personally, I think trample immunity for human form would further make the bear form not as useful as the human form, so I'm against that idea.  I also believe the beorning would have a lack of counters is they were immune to trample.

I don't think there is too much wrong with the bear form, but I think the one change they need is higher melee damage, because right now, it is really low.  I know the risk of increasing their damage too much, especially since they have AoE and Knockback on their attack, but right now it takes too long for bear form to kill anything with its melee attack.  The best example of this is when Bear Form attacks a Iron Hills ram rider.   While it's funny seeing a the ram rider continuously get knocked down by a bear, it takes a lot of hits for the bear to kill 1 ram rider.

The beorning leveling up really fast isn't a problem at all. The way I see it, there really isn't a point in making it level slower.

If there is one thing I want the beorning to have, it's an ability besides just switching forms.
Maybe something that unlocks at level 3.  Here is what I would add.

For Human form:  For 20 Seconds, the Beorning is Immune to Knockback/Trample and has a small AoE on his attacks.

For Bear Form:  For 20 Seconds, The Beorning is Immune to Crush Revenge damage and more resistant to Pikeman melee attacks.

Of course, I'm just suggesting an ability.  I would like to here some feedback on it to see what other people think.  I just think that Beornings could use another ability.

Concerning Grimbeorn, what exactly is his role right now?  Is it stated anywhere?

Odysseus

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #3 am: 16. Dez 2015, 16:01 »
Thank you, gentlemen, for the good feedback. Well, according to the original hero roles sheet on the site here, Grimbeorn was/is supposed to be a mass slayer, here: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php?topic=30866.0

The list is a little outdated, but most of it still stands.

Awaiting a bit more feedback.

Greetings.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

korner

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #4 am: 16. Dez 2015, 16:40 »
just one short question in between: what do you people mean with "AoE"?

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #5 am: 16. Dez 2015, 16:47 »
Area of effect = something can hit more than one enemy at once ;)
In german it's "Flächenschaden".

CynasFan

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #6 am: 16. Dez 2015, 16:48 »
They mean Area of Effect.
Thats mechanics which influende a whole area and not only one thing. So, the 10 Spells by Lothlorien are Area of Effect, AoE.
Greetings, JOLNIR JOLAREIDI

PS: Or they mean the gameseries Age of Empires. :D
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Hamanathnath

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #7 am: 16. Dez 2015, 18:53 »
PS: Or they mean the gameseries Age of Empires. :D

  :P Yeah, I love the Beorning Bear Form's Age of Empires attack  ;) ;) ;)

Well, according to the original hero roles sheet on the site here, Grimbeorn was/is supposed to be a mass slayer, here: http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php?topic=30866.0


Well that's good to know.  Maybe he should get something that makes him a better mass-slayer.  I'll be honest, I'd have to use him more to see how good he is.  I never use him because of his price, which I think needs to be lowered.  I've seen him in action and I don't think he is worth that price.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #8 am: 18. Dez 2015, 13:50 »
He is definitely not worth the price. The idea to give Beornings an additional ability is brilliant Haman, +1 to that from me :)
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #9 am: 18. Dez 2015, 14:44 »
The idea to give Beornings an additional ability is brilliant Haman, +1 to that from me :)
Glad you liked it.   :) 

Btw, I don't exactly know if this is true or not, but does Grimbeorn deal less damage to buildings then 1 Beorning?  I haven't tested it myself, but I think I remember noticing in a match I played. 




Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #10 am: 18. Dez 2015, 14:54 »
Probably yes. On paper, beornings deal more damage, but use a different damage type. Since HERO has a worse damage modifier against buildings than CHOP (which is what beornings use), Grimbeorn should theoretically be less effective against buildings. You should still check that ingame though, as I'm not 100% sure^^

Odysseus

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #11 am: 18. Dez 2015, 15:57 »
So now, Beorningers seem to be fine? I'm confused :D.

Anyway, perhaps make Beorningers heavy-hitters, and what an active ability, they can temporarily deal good damage to structures. Or vice-versa, I don't really mind. I just would like to see some really small additional nerf(s) to Beorningers, with the average hero getting countered pretty hard by 2 Beorningers already.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

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Re: The current state of Beorningers & Grimbeorn
« Antwort #12 am: 18. Dez 2015, 16:28 »
I don't think the Beorning's damage against buildings is really a problem.

I don't think they should be are good as they are right now against heroes.  And there isn't really a point for using the Bear's in melee combat because of how low damage they deal.  The only reason I ever use Bear form in melee combat is against Cavalry, so I don't get trampled. 

Probably yes. On paper, beornings deal more damage, but use a different damage type. Since HERO has a worse damage modifier against buildings than CHOP (which is what beornings use), Grimbeorn should theoretically be less effective against buildings. You should still check that ingame though, as I'm not 100% sure^^

Yeah I will check.  And if this is true, Then I think Grimbeorn should get a damage increase to buildings, considering how much more expensive he is.  They should at least do the same amount of damage to buildings, if not Grimbeorn deals a little more damage.