[en] Edain Mod > [Edain] General Suggestions

Witch King in Angmar and Ringwraiths

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Spacetyrant93:
Hello everybody!
I would like to propose a concept that I have had in mind for a while. As the title says, I would like to propose and discuss some ideas about the Ringwraiths.
Let me say this first: I already asked the Team for them all to have movie armors, and back then the answer was no, mainly for the five wraiths for the reasons that there'd be too many heroes. I understoon their motives and was content, even if I did propose something later (don't remember the details though) but I assure this is a different idea, so please hear me out. Let us start with their leader, the bearer of the Iron Crown, the Witch-King.

Witch-King


Particularly, my focus was to put on his current design and interpretation in Angmar. I mean no offense, but I don't really like his current look. Kind of too bulky, in certain ways in ridicolous amounts, and looks kind of Warcraft-esque in comparison the the more realistic armors seen in all other factions. Only Sauron can be compared in terms of over-armor (but he was a Maia of Aule, so baroque yet functional armor is due at the very least).That much exxagerated armor looks out of place in my opinion, and those shoulders...really? Plus, I know those are his signature features that make him recognizable, but I wouldn't know if this is the place for that helm-crown and the mace. Overall, he is kind of too similar to Mordor's version. Well, not exactly insensate, since it's the same damn character, but I would propose a bit of differentiation. BOTFA has recently provided us with new concepts for the Nazgul and, while those too are kinda over-the-top, I believe they are at least worth considering.


WK on the left


WK in the center

Technically speaking, now movie canon did give off something of Angmar: the armor the WK bears is probably what he wore back then, so one could assume that he's in his royal Black Numenorean (?) battle gear. Whether or not this claim is of any relevance, I wouldn't know, but now a small piece of Angmar has made it to the screen.

Now, we saw Angmar's going throu a re-work, and comparing the new designs with movie armor, they do have more similarities. Plus, the design looks more functional, at least to me. Original concepts had both the Ringwraiths and Sauron have very adherent armor and clothes, to rensemble writhed skeletons, or at least give off the idea of corpses.
So then, I would propose a compromise: unite these two designs. I would say the armor could be primarly movie's, with tweaks here and there, like the shoulders still having the three spikes of the Iron Crown, only smaller, and shorten the 'gown' to show the iron boots under which Angmar is kept. As for the cloth (since technically it has no colors) I'd say all-out Edain color scheme, with the intricate golden decorations and the black-blue cape. Only two points I wouldn't know what to do:

-The helm: I don't dislike the Hobbit's version, especially since it does seem to bear a kind of crown, and as I said before it's technically movie-canon Angmar. But, the old helm assured immediate recognicion of the black king.

-Weapons: A proposal here would be to have him use his old sword and, possibly, the Angmar Staff of the original version. Yet, as said before the flail instantly assures you that's the Witch King.

Nazgul

About the others, all I would propose would be a look upgrade for the Shadow Lord and the Dark Marshall, with some movie features here and there. uning the pictures above and this


I would just propose this

Dark Marshall: the guy with the long mace (Nazgul #3 to the right of the WK) could give some features of his armor to the Dark Marshall, whom should still keep his sword, for that mace's kind of weird (that and too many mace-fanatic villains)

Shadow Lord: 2 possibilities here:
-1: the one with the spear (left of WK), whom I believe to be from Khand, given the exotic look, and the fact that there are at least two of them with that same armor. Animators's laziness aside, Khand was said to be split, with various rulers, so a couple of them could have become Ringwraiths. And the Shadow Lord is said to have been the lord of an insignificant land before becoming a wraith, and technically few ever even name Khand;

-2: the one on Khamul's right with the Trident, almost certainly a Haradrim, and since Easterling and Haradrim can actually be on the field, and the Easterling have their king, it'd be interesting to have Harad's old ruler as well. True, the 'king of insignificant realm' is kinda out of place in this case, plus Suladan is (was?) around, but I still think it would be interesting;

Both these Wraiths have a long weapon, just to offer the possibility of a nazgul with different fighting style not yet seen in game (indeed, few heroes have spears, none has a trident).

On a side note, the wraith with the axe would certainly fit the 'insignificant king' part, given his less complex gear, but doesn't give off the 'Shadow Lord' feeling.

Now, I believe I'm finished. You might have noticed that I do like the movies, wich is totally true, but I really admire and am trying to follow the 'compromise between book and movie' the Team has going on. So, on my part, these are just suggestions, suggestions on which I would like to hear the opinion of you guys. What do you think? And Thanks for reading :)

(Palland)Raschi:

--- Zitat --- I would like to hear the opinion of you guys.
--- Ende Zitat ---

My opinion to this proposal is quite clear: I don't like it at all.
I do not like how the ringwraiths are introduced in the hobbit. Their appearance does not make any sense to me. Why are they even visible, when they are wraiths and even when you can see them, they should should be presented like in the first LOTR movie on the Weathertop.
The witchking should look like the witchking and not like something...well looking weird. I have to admit that the armour of the Witchking in the Edain mod looks a little bit clumpy but I think the Team is going to change this as well.
I am looking forward for their own interpretation.

Besides I do not see any reason why this strange adaption should be introduced for the Nazgul as well. There is no justification that one needs to take that awful design.

ringbearer:
I agree with you about Witch-king :) I personaly don't like this shadow lord armor and so on, i don't like these heroes.

Some time ago a had an idea to use these hobbit nazgul armours for castelans , for example one of them keeps current look and 2 others will have a different one and so on.

Garlodur:
Interesting suggestion, and understandable you'd like the implementation. Some of those models look amazing and it's obvious that the 'costume' designers of the Hobbit movies thought everything through using their creativity to fill up the holes in Tolkien's writing.

However, with designing these costumes for the Ringwraiths they assumed that the Nazgul would in some way want to reference to their might as former rulers. This is quite strange to think because they might have realised that they were being corrupted from within, plus that their kingdom was falling apart; that is, not something you'd be proud of after 'natural' death.

So in my opinion, the way the Edain has portrayed the Nazgûl is still the most sensible combination of lore and artistic interpretation. The leader of the Ringwraiths must have some distinctive features besides the fact that he ruled over Angmar. Hence a combination of a crown and the slinger-mace (whatever it really is called). The armour around it, as introduced to us in LotR, also makes sense because he led the armies of Minas Morgul. Regarding Khamûl, he is the only Ringwraith of whom we know its name and origin, so he deserves the recognition in the form of the awesome helmet. The Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord and sweet implementations from Games Workshop for the sake of giving Mordor some single-hero Nazgûls instead of a battalion.

I am not convinced that all Nazgûl should have distinctive armour and/or weapons because there is nothing we can deduce about their history and origin.

On a final note, I believe that the Witch-King in his current look is too extravagant; too much metal, too many spikes (indeed Warcraftesque), too little mystery, too much focus on the portrayal of sheer power instead of dark magic.
Could the team tone it down a little, by hiding more of his body with cloak, giving him less armour, but leaving his boots and arms covered to symbolize his iron fist.

I hope more people agree with me on this final thing. I do think it should be changed.

Spacetyrant93:


--- Zitat ---My opinion to this proposal is quite clear: I don't like it at all.
I do not like how the ringwraiths are introduced in the hobbit. Their appearance does not make any sense to me. Why are they even visible, when they are wraiths and even when you can see them, they should should be presented like in the first LOTR movie on the Weathertop.
The witchking should look like the witchking and not like something...well looking weird. I have to admit that the armour of the Witchking in the Edain mod looks a little bit clumpy but I think the Team is going to change this as well.
I am looking forward for their own interpretation.

Besides I do not see any reason why this strange adaption should be introduced for the Nazgul as well. There is no justification that one needs to take that awful design.

--- Ende Zitat ---

Got it. Whether these are implemented or not little changes for me, and as for the rest, to each his opinion. Their introduction surprised me, but I just enjoyed their presence. We'll see what the Team will do.


--- Zitat ---I agree with you about Witch-king :) I personaly don't like this shadow lord armor and so on, i don't like these heroes.

Some time ago a had an idea to use these hobbit nazgul armours for castelans , for example one of them keeps current look and 2 others will have a different one and so on.
--- Ende Zitat ---

Glad you do :) I just threw it for the heck of it, doesn't matter if changed or not.

Now THAT is an interesting idea. In the end they are ghastly, armored forms roaming Dol Guldur, and Castellans having their appearance would be awesome. This should be suggested more. The funny thing? You get to have nine Castellans in game XD


--- Zitat ---Interesting suggestion, and understandable you'd like the implementation. Some of those models look amazing and it's obvious that the 'costume' designers of the Hobbit movies thought everything through using their creativity to fill up the holes in Tolkien's writing.

However, with designing these costumes for the Ringwraiths they assumed that the Nazgul would in some way want to reference to their might as former rulers. This is quite strange to think because they might have realised that they were being corrupted from within, plus that their kingdom was falling apart; that is, not something you'd be proud of after 'natural' death.

So in my opinion, the way the Edain has portrayed the Nazgûl is still the most sensible combination of lore and artistic interpretation. The leader of the Ringwraiths must have some distinctive features besides the fact that he ruled over Angmar. Hence a combination of a crown and the slinger-mace (whatever it really is called). The armour around it, as introduced to us in LotR, also makes sense because he led the armies of Minas Morgul. Regarding Khamûl, he is the only Ringwraith of whom we know its name and origin, so he deserves the recognition in the form of the awesome helmet. The Dark Marshall and Shadow Lord and sweet implementations from Games Workshop for the sake of giving Mordor some single-hero Nazgûls instead of a battalion.

I am not convinced that all Nazgûl should have distinctive armour and/or weapons because there is nothing we can deduce about their history and origin.

On a final note, I believe that the Witch-King in his current look is too extravagant; too much metal, too many spikes (indeed Warcraftesque), too little mystery, too much focus on the portrayal of sheer power instead of dark magic.
Could the team tone it down a little, by hiding more of his body with cloak, giving him less armour, but leaving his boots and arms covered to symbolize his iron fist.

I hope more people agree with me on this final thing. I do think it should be changed.

--- Ende Zitat ---

I agree on everything, and have no problem with the Wk and Khamul having their moment of awesome, as for the other two, it was only a small thing for their armored forms, just to spice things in a different way, I like them as they are just fine. Actually, Games Workshop's versions of the Nazgul are my favourites, they are just that awesome.

My point exactly. Hence the suggestion of more tissue, and a cloak, to make him seem both more regal and more 'Witch' King.

I do XD

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