A possible new Evil Men faction

[dkbluewizard]

Also lordoflinks, I feel the bluewizards should be separate from the Evil Men, there is nothing in canon that says they were with Sauron's forces. So I agree with your newest proposal more than any

[dkbluewizard]

Lordoflinks

I did some thinking and I still like your concept. I also wanted to add this, I feel that the starting castle/camp should be black numenorean based given that they colonized all around middle earth. Then I think we could use the heroes you suggested, but I would like to see the Evil Men pick their theme from the Black Numenor fortress. There they can choose Harad or Rhun and have all the powers, settlements, and stuff that you talk about along with the ringheroes as well.

I would still like to see a Dwarf like system implemented for the Evil Men faction, why? Cause they would have more heroes this way and it still separates them enough to show that they are independent from each other and would fight each other.

If we absolutely cannot do a Dwarf like system between just Rhun and Harad. Then we should continue with what you said. But I honestly feel that your way mixed with my way would be the best option for all. The only task that would be hard is the Dwarf like system, but I think since they would just be picking between Rhun and Harad that the coders wouldn't have too much difficulty. 

[lordoflinks]

In an ideal world the Blue Wizards would be with a Dorwinion fraction.
I feel that Rhun is the best base, as the Dark Numerorians never played a huge role in the War of the Ring, and Harad is too savage and nomadic I feel to have a Castle.
I don't believe the Dwarf system would work, as it can not cater for different Castles, and would end up making Harad and Rhun symmetrical when in reality they had very different focuses. I see the virtue in a Dwarf system, but I don't know if I could come up with enough units and buildings for Harad. However that in the end is a question for the Coders.
I am glad you like my newer proposal, I feel it captures the essence of the men who turned to Melkor in the first and second ages.

[dkbluewizard]

To LordofLinks,

I do like your proposal, I also thought that maybe we could include a Priest of Morgoth hero for Rhun, since I know he went to the East to contact the men in the Silmarillion. Perhaps the Evil Men could have four ring heroes: The three that you said and the Priest of Morgoth for Rhun. 2 for Harad and 2 for Rhun.

The only reason I suggested a Black Numenor fortress is because any Evil Man faction can use it as their starting point and then their traditional buildings could be built inside and outside the fortress. I like this concept because, like I said, it makes more sense and signifies the distinction between their cultures while also addressing their ties to the dark numenorians.

Coding is an issue, but I think it could be made to work. I have seen Edain accomplish such great tasks.

[lordoflinks]

A Priest of Morgoth hero is a good idea for Rhun and gives them another hero but I would only be in favour of making him a ring hero if the dwarf system was used, other wise he would be redundant.
The thing is Rhun does not have ties to Numenor through Dark or light, and giving them a fortress based of Numenor I feel diminishes their own accomplishments, as it implies Rhun has become advance as they have had due to Numenor; when in reality their accomplishments are due to themselves.   
Besides Harad can't have a castle with walls; how would you get the Murkamil out.

[dkbluewizard]

To Lordoflinks,

You are right, but I don't think Mumaks would be built in the fortress anyways. Actually, Rhun has come in contact with the Kings Men (Numenor) it is stated they colonized all around the world (coastal ports and other areas). So that is what I was saying, the buildings are like abandoned or well kept Numenor fortresses. But at this point it is just a building.

At the core this is what I would like to see:
1. A Dwarf like system for Harad and Rhun.
2. Many different heroes and subfaction builds for each faction.
3. 3 or 4 Ringheroes

If all of this can be accomplished, I don't care what the initial building is. If they want a Rhun fortress, so be it. To me it doesn't matter as long as the system is like the Dwarfs because both factions are close yet distinctively different enough to be incorporated this way. They are allies then they are not. To me this is the best way and as long as those three methods are met. I am content.

[lordoflinks]

Your ideas have merit, but I would caution you against becoming too attached to a Dwarf like system, as it may not be flexible enough for 2 very different fractions such as Harad and Rhun.
At this point without an idea of how possible a Dwarf like system is, I hope a team member weighs in on its feasibility.
I shall pose to you several questions if a Dwarf like system was possible.
1. What would Rhun's outposts be, if Harad got Umbar and Khand? Please suggests something, for I can not come up with ideas.
2. If it turned out both fractions had to use the same fortress, how would Murkamil be handled? If the fortress is not walled it does an injustice to Rhun, and if it is it prevents Murkamil from being built; and Harad has both Umbar and Khand as subfractions so there is not space for a recruitment building on an external plot.
About whether Rhun met Dark Numenorians, I would refute; the area where Rhun lies is landlocked and its on the longitude the DN avoided due to the elves.

[dkbluewizard]

lordoflinks

You bring up some very good points.

1. I think the Mumak pin could be built on the settlements along with the Harad farm and mill. The Outpost for Harad would simply be Umbar while Rhun got Khand. If you don't like the idea of Khand being with Rhun (since they are between Rhun and Harad and could go with either one), then I would do a Balcoth or Wainrider outpost.

2. I believe I solved the Mumak problem as they would have to be built outside the fortress. Let's be honest Rhun and Harad would both have fortresses, so I think a generic fortress would be suitable.

Well the King's Men colonized many areas, it is speculation whether they met Rhun or not, we know Harad they've met, so they had to have established trade with Rhun, so...I don't know but like i said. If the coders can do it, then I feel this would be the best option. But as long as the faction of Evil Men are combined and we get 3 or 4 Ringheroes. I am satisfied.

[lordoflinks]

In the end I doubt any of these ideas will matter, but I will say this. I do prefer my idea of a single combined fraction, for while it may not take into account the fact Rhun and Harad may have fought, I feel it offers the best function if a Dwarf style system is not possible.
If it is, I leave the proposal of a Dwarf style system to you, as I don't feel like writing a third proposal for the Evil Men, for while I love Rhun; I don't love them that much. 
Feel free to use any/all of my ideas; and I am more than happy to aid in any way. I shall say, I will write up a detailed proposal for Dorwinion.

[dkbluewizard]

LordofLinks, that would be great! 

I am totally in 100% agreement with you and I hope the community is.

If the Dwarf system is possible, do it a combined way of LordofLinks and Dkbluewizard.
If the system is not possible, then do it totally the way LordofLinks has suggested.

I think both ideas are excellent canonical additions to the game and I think all of us would just love it! Thanks for your input LordofLinks, I look forward to seeing a Dorwinion proposal, I have one already listed, but if you would like to enhance it, I am all for it as you have some darn good ideas!

[dkbluewizard]

To everyone in concern of the Evil Men faction.

Drawing upon the idea of LordofLinks and that one of the heroes should be the "Priest of Morgoth" since he probably had a temple build in the east when he corrupted the men--I figured out the identity of the Priest of Morgoth who could be used with the "Evil Men" faction.

Tolkien Gateway and LOTR wiki both discuss him, he is referenced in the Silmarillion (Morgoth leaving behind lesser servants for he feared about the battles in beleriand) and other notes by JRR Tolkien, and it states that he never died or what happened to him.

So now I present to you guys the Priest of Morgoth: Fankil.

You can read all about Fankil here: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Fankil & http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Wicked_dwarves

Fankil could be a Dark Purple mage looking character and I feel he is canonical and is a good addition to the faction as he was the one that was left behind to corrupt the Evil Men in the first place.

Also I wanted to add this for reference: http://merp.wikia.com/wiki/Fankil

Now I am for someone different and non-canon, however, just make them a Dark Purple looking mage.

[dkbluewizard]

LordofLinks,

disregard my post above. The Evil Men faction should have only Evil Men for Ringheroes as you suggested. I still feel we need 4 ringheroes though: Lord of Umbar, Suladan, King of Khand, and Rhun Emperor.

Fankil is too powerful and we don't know much about him, and evil already gets a bunch of super ringheroes: Sauron, Smaug, Saruman, Alatar (with Dorwinion eventually), etc.

[lordoflinks]

I would only be in favour of the King of Khand being a ring hero if the fractions were split up; otherwise there is no need to have four.

[dkbluewizard]

But LordofLinks,

If we implement the Evil Men faction as all one faction, who is to say that each King wouldn't want the ring for themselves?

Also, instead of calling the starting castle Rhun, could we just call it Evil Men citadel? Or something, I feel like giving the Evil Men a Rhun fortress focuses on Rhun too much. I agree with all your proposals, but lets just call the fortress the "Evil Men fort" or something. Maybe since there unity with Sauron, they had special forts like these built for them? Might be a possibility since the Ringwraiths managed most of these regions and would have similar buildings erected for the kingdoms of Sauron, and the rulers could still want to oust Sauron if they got the One Ring. I really see this a possibility with the Lord of Umbar since he would be a black numenorian.

[lordoflinks]

With regards to ring heroes it is not that Khand would not want it; but rather I think it would be difficult coming up for a ring mechanic for the Khan that would be unique as compared to the leader of Harad and balanced; as the Khan is intended to be a scout hero that supports the Khand settlement building, if such a way could be found however I would be in favour but I can not think of one.
With regards to the fortress it is more aesthetic; in my concept the only buildings you would build in the fortress would be Rhun buildings so it would look silly to have black steel walls and red and gold buildings. Umbar in my concept is represented through a outpost that can be upgraded once to a Black Numeorian outpost (Think something similar to Angmar's system for outposts)