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Autor Thema: Imladris Suggestions  (Gelesen 1264 mal)

Offline VectorMaximus

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Imladris Suggestions
« am: 9. Jan 2016, 18:31 »
Hello Edain Community!

As a massive fan of Imladris and the Noldor in general, I felt like I should just get out the suggestions I’ve had running through my head for them. Take none or all, I just would appreciate feedback.
Generally speaking, while I have done my best to keep up on posts on Imladris, I have not read everything about them on the forums, so if I repeat a question or suggestion already answered, my apologies. Also, I have not actually played 3.8., just watched lots of videos on it, so forgive me if I make a mistake when referencing it.
I will not specify armor or damage, because I freely admit I don’t know much about game balance.

Many Thanks, VectorMaximus

Heroes:

Generally speaking, Imladris’s heroes should remain largely unchanged from 3.8.1. However, there is one hero I believe that needs to be reworked slightly – Elrond, due to the fact that he is the ringhero. Here’s my suggestion.
Elrond Halfelven

Lvl 1 – Flood: Same as in 3.8, this unleashes a small 2 horse flood that deals medium damage to units and negligible damage to structures. With One Ring – Become Wrath of the Bruinen – Full scale flood

Lvl 3 – Elrond’s Wisdom: Same ability as in 3.8.1, grants XP to targeted hero. With One Ring – Makes target hero lvl 10

Lvl 5 – Lord of Rivendell (passive): Elrond dons his armor from BOTFA, gaining bonus armor, damage, and providing leadership to surrounding units. With One Ring – Becomes High King of the Noldor – Elrond takes up the crown of Gil-Galad and leads the Noldor to a new age in Middle Earth, further increasing all gains made from ‘Lord of Rivendell’

Lvl 8 – Vilya the Ring of Air (passive): The power of Vilya helps to slow the fading of the Eldar, and allows the preservation of Rivendell through the Third Age. Reduces damage taken by building in the elven base and slowly heals allied units within the base proper. With One Ring – Becomes Aman in Arda – The power of the One Ring allows Middle-Earth to be remade in the image of Valinor, as is the dream of the Noldor. All Elven structures take massively reduced damage and heal all elven units in their vicinity swiftly, but dunedain allied units take continuous damage – a reference to how men would wear thin if they lived in the land eternal.

Lvl 10 – Rejuvenation: Elrond is the greatest healer of the Eldar on middle earth. Same effect as in the base game, a heal and ability reset. However, to make it worthy of lvl 10, I believe that in difference to base heals, Rejuvenation would heal units FULLY. With One Ring – Becomes Vilya Unbound; AKA TORNADO TIME. Elrond, now as High King, uses the power of the one to free the 3 Elven Rings. He no longer has time to devote to healing, save in extreme circumstances, so he loses Rejuvenation and regains his iconic tornado, which seemed slightly out of place as a base ability.

Units:
Base Units are all fine, so far as I can see. I do however have some suggestions for Hero Units.

Guardians of Gondolin – would replace Watchdog from 3.8, because that name is a little silly, in my opinion: 3 to a battalion, requires all Rivendell Upgrades. 3 maximum. These veterans of the crossing of the ice and the fall of Gondolin do not desire to fight, save at great need (IE, they cost a lot). However, they are unmatched warriors of the Noldor. They would wield spear and shield, but would function like Cirith Ungol halberads, strong versus all unit types.

Lvl 5 – White Armor of Gondolin: The warriors don their ancient armor, gaining increased armor versus heroes and monsters. Once they have this armor, they turn into an anti-hero unit, to keep up with hero-spam factions such as Mordor (If Elrond and Glorfindel cost as much as in 3.8, Imladris needs them).

Lvl 8 – Light of the Trees. These warriors remember the noontide of Valinor before the felling of the trees, and the light shines through them. For a short time they gained increased damage and provide leadership in a small radius around them.

My next two unit suggestions have to do with one of my later posts, specifically buildings and an Idea of a Lindon Outpost.

Veterans of the Last Alliance – Most of the Noldor in the Last Alliance were from Lindon, and so the veterans returned home after the battle to live a quiet life where they could sail when they chose. 6 to a battalion, 5 battalions maximum – essentially ROTWK’s base Noldor Warriors, capable of switching between sword and bow. Requires unit upgrades to recruit

Lvl 7 – Weapon Song: Gain increased damage for a time.

Mithlond Sentries – The wardens of Mithlond rarely are called into battle, and so there are more to a battalion and are cheaper, but are not as strong as other units, per man. Porcupine and upgradeable, same as in the base game. This would allow Lindon to have another unit other than the guardians, and would allow Rivendell a more spam-like unit.

Buildings:

I agree with the sentiment that Rivendell shouldn’t produce units outside the base – Hence the Dunedain encampment, and I would assume that the Lindon watchtower is being included as well. However, I would appreciate being able to have something more elvish on the outpost. Hence my suggestion – The Lindon Stronghold.
The Lindon Stronghold would function like Dol–Amroth and the Dunedain camp, and you would be able to recruit the following units – Guardians of Lindon, Veterans of the Last Alliance, and Mithlond Sentries, as well as Cirdan. Whether it would upgrade with Cirdan, as with the Lindon Watchtower, or have purchasable upgrades, I don’t know. Also, you could probably add in the Lindon Horse-Archers to it, but Calvary is Rohan’s territory, so I’m not sure if adding Horse Archers would be stepping on their toes or not, as well as the fact that Mirkwood has Elk-Riders (though, in An Unexpected Adventure, the elves of Rivendell shot from horseback against the orcs, which shows a precedent for it).

Powers

Tier 1:
Horn of the Noldor – A standard rallying call.

Healing Gesture – A standard heal, though since Rivendell is renowned for its healers, perhaps it should heal more?

 Vilya’s Breath – Replaces Enshrouding Fog from 3.8.1, formerly Breath of Manwe from Lorien in 3.8.1 – This could be a nice way to give a nod to Vilya’s powers to confuse and disorient those who would attack Imladris, as well as give an example of Vilya’s power over air other than the tornado, since I relegated it in my suggestions to Ring-Hero Elrond.

Tier 2:

Elven Wood – Standard tree AOE area buff

Light of the Evenstar from 3.8(not sure about this, but I am unsure what else could be put here)ul

Friends of the Old Forest (Bombadil and Goldberry) same as 3.8

Lay of Luthien – Puts enemies to sleep in a small area, same power as 3.8

Tier 3

The Council of Elrond – Same power as 3.8, random summon for any participant of the council and some of their folk.

Noldolantë – Replaces Cloud Break – instead of stunning, the Lament of the Noldor de-buffs enemies globally, as well as cancelling leadership. Essentially, darkness for the good guys!

Smith-Lore of Gondolin and Eregion (Passive) – All units with heavy armor and forged blades gain addition stats. Heavy Armor grants slightly more armor against normal attacks and greatly improves protection to fire, poison, and fear. Forged Blades deal slightly increased damage in general and much more damage to undead units and monsters.

Tier 4

The Last Alliance – Same power as 3.8, summon the Host of Elendil and Gil-Galad to your aid.

Final Marshall of the Noldor – The idea for a power that started this whole post. One of Imladris’s main weaknesses that they lack the ability to quickly and cheaply resupply after being defeated. This power would help to offset that weakness. For a short time, units would be built at drastically reduced cost, would be built far faster, and would come with upgrades already bought. Lore-Wise, my reasoning is this – The Noldor are aware that for good or ill, this is the end of their age in Middle-Earth. Whether as fea or in ships, Valinor is calling them. So, they do not end their age in silence, but in a final burst of glory, an image of the Noldor of the First Age in all their Might. They open up their vaults, assemble all their host, for their final war on mortal shore
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Walküre

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #1 am: 9. Jan 2016, 21:17 »
First of all, welcome to MU and great thanks for your precious suggestions  :)

I really liked how you exposed things and gave your personal explanation backed with the lore of the Eldar, with which I am profoundly in love as well  ;)

I just want to refer to some of your suggestions, and take this occasion to give other aspects that I thought about too.

If you have time, I sincerely suggest you have a look at a thread of this section that specifically deals with Elrond, and in which there were gathered really interesting and detailed ideas.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31323.msg400237.html#msg400237

Especially, in some of the last pages, I had pointed out the fact that I didn't and still don't like a tornado (therefore a destructive representation of Magic) to be related to the healing and preserving nature of Vilya, which, as you rightly wrote, was made to create a sort of mortal reflection of Valinor/Eldamar/Eressëa in Middle Earth, in a mournful and sad desire of recreating what the Eldar had lost after having chosen the Exile from Aman (very recurrent theme in their creations).

I thus suggested merging the sensational restoring power of Vilya with the magical healing abilities of Elrond, creating a new level 10 power for the leader of Imladris fashioned on the previous Restoration power (but definitely much more powerful), replacing the not so lore accurate and conceptual tornado.
This is what I exactly wrote about this matter in the same Elrond thread  :)

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31323.msg408139.html#msg408139

Furthermore, I'm really interested about the clouds break spell that will be part of the spellbook of Rivendell.

Since the vanilla clouds break spell of Lothlórien was magnificently replaced by something definitely more suitable (the Elbereth Gilthoniel spell), I think that other things else more conceptual could be found for Imladris.
I had thought about something referred to the magical Holy Wind from Aman that dispersed the remnants of the spirit of Sauron in Mordor after the One Ring was destroyed.

Obviously, we could think about various other elements.
Anyway, I would say that we should think about something really related to the Immortal Lands, as Rivendell is indeed the only place left along with the Grey Havens (and the very presence of Galadriel in Lothlórien) that still maintains a strong spiritual and 'mythological' relationship with the Blessed Realm.

These were and are my ideas.
I hope we will be able to create a very broad and constructive debate  ;)

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: DieWalküre
« Antwort #2 am: 9. Jan 2016, 22:30 »
I do agree heavily that the Whirlwind is highly out of place and is not canonical at all - but it is such a iconic ability I felt somewhat guilty about removing it completely, so I believed that it was an appropriate ability for a ring-hero, showing the destructive capability of the One while removing his rejuvenation, showing that even though Elrond could wield the One and its might, it would come at a cost, in this case, his ability to heal.

However, I have a hard time thinking of an abilty that would be worthy of both Vilya and Elrond's healing powers, if we were to combine them as you suggest. The power of the Ring of Air is in the healing of the soul and the wariness of the world, creating a refuge in mortal lands for the undying. It is a quiet, everpresent healing, entwined with the land itself, hence why I suggested it passively heal in the base, rather than be an ability. Where as Elrond's powers of healing, while great, are used on singular people at a time, more befitting a power along the lines of Rejuvenation. The only way I can think they could feasibly be combined is to make it either a massive heal and building rebuild, showing the strength of Vilya to restore, directed by Elrond's will, or make it so all units mapwide would heal and respawn units constantly, showing the more continuous and pervasive healing power. But both these ideas leave me unsatisfied.

However, on the idea of the Cloudbreak replacement. You suggested that it be something along the lines of the holy wind that blew out of the west and dispered Sauron. Perhaps something on the lines of a large AOE spell that would periodically knock down enemies? That would make it something gameplay-wise a good substitute for the army-disabling power that is cloudbreak. However, while I do agree that thematically, Rivendell is closest to the Undying Lands and those that inhabit them, I don't know if they should play a large part in the gameplay. The Valar and the undying lands don't intervene in Middle-Earth anymore afterall, so I based my suggestions of that notion - no aid shall come from the Uttermost West. I chose the Noldolantë as the replacement with the effect it had because no other good faction has a large debuff  outside Ered Luin's war masks, and the Ban of Lothlorien. In addition, thematically I believed that the Noldolantë - the lament written by Maglor of the fall of the Noldor, represented well the bittersweet nature of the Noldor - wisest and mightiest of the Eldar they may be, but they made a lot of mistakes first.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Walküre

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #3 am: 9. Jan 2016, 23:17 »
If you scroll down a bit this section, you will find that they were made other proposals about Elrond and the One Ring, being his case maybe the most problematic one to be related to a totally evil artefact like the One Ring itself.
Specifically, in this thread you will see that the Edain Team will probably find another more innovative solution for Imladris, rather than the regular Ring Hero that tries to control the One Ring and to bend its powers with different results depending on the faction.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,30970.msg392588.html#msg392588

I think that I know what we could possibly see, but I won't reveal anything, not even speculations, if it is not officially announced by the Edain Team itself  :)

Oh, yes, sorry, I forgot to write it.
My suggestion about Vilya involves a major and expanded total restoration (health and powers) of multiple heroes and units in a certain area.
And, I forgot to mention that I liked indeed your proposal to link this hypothetical power with the very structures of Rivendell, since its integrity and status as a timeless sanctuary in the disenchanted Third Age are exactly determined by the Elven Ring wielded by Elrond.

I do know that it is realistically impossible thinking about a direct intervention from Valinor in the late Third Age, and, as you can see in my Signature, I'm specifically interested in the lore of Aman.
But, having said that, it doesn't mean that the Valar weren't always watchful and interested in the events of the outer Arda (now separated from the Undying Lands), or that a very tiny bit of their power could have not been shown as well in the World, as we can see after the defeat of Sauron, when Manwë (the one and only King of Arda and Lord of the Air) eventually, but the reason was more symbolic than actually useful, purifies Middle Earth with his Wind from the last great Evil  :)

Therefore, I thought that a direct Wind from Aman would have been more 'involving' (being Rivendell closer to the West) than the hymn to Varda of Lothlórien.
But, obviously, any direct manifestation of power from anything before the Third Age (apart Gorthaur and other few exceptions), especially regarding the Valar and Morgoth, is rightly and legitimately avoided in the game.

Also, a power of this kind would symbolise the blessing of the Valar to the Noldor after their 'redemption' (even if not total) achieved through centuries via unspeakable sorrows suffered both against Morgoth and Sauron.
I think that a lament (though representative and iconic) will kind of 'ruin' a bit the calm, sheltering and joyful 'atmosphere' of Rivendell, that it has always been a constant trait of this faction.

Not to say that, although admiring its primary and legendary role in the lore, I really despise the House of Fëanor.
But this is definitely a personal opinion  :D

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #4 am: 10. Jan 2016, 00:29 »
I feel no hatred for the House of Feanor - only pity for their Oath, for all other things may have turned out well if only it had not been sworn. Though I will admit I'm not too charitable about Feanor's temper! Honestly the elf was jumping at ghosts and had a hair trigger temper... not a good combination for the mightiest elf to ever live.

While perhaps a lament would be atmosphere-breaking, I personally do not believe the Noldor as a people ever fell, so they do not need a sign of redemption. I'll come straight out and say that I'm not always the biggest fan of the Valar - I read them more morally ambiguously then some people I've met. They do their best, but they make mistakes. The only person in Tolkien that I believe unfailable and unalterable good is Eru, the one. The Valar, in my opinion, treated the elves as children, and did their best to shelter them from all the hurts of the world, and noble as that may be, evil found its way into even the bliss of Valinor. Shielding a child and coddling them will merely stunt their growth, and when evil reared it head the elves were unprepared, so I believe there is some truth to what Feanor said, though he said it far too harshly and went too far. I believe the leaving of Aman helped the elves to grow into their fullness.

Anyway, I got off track. The ban on the Noldor was lifted at the end of the War of Wrath, signaling their 'forgiveness' by the Valar. By the 3rd age, very few of the Noldor in Middle-Earth were born in Aman or had seen it, and had known no home other then Middle-Earth, and indeed few of them had ever interacted with the Valar or the Maia. I simply don't see a need to underscore they were forgiven when I personally am not sure the Noldor as a people committed any sin but to desire to make their own path. Feanor, his house, and all those who followed him sinned in the Kinslayings, particularly at Alqualondë, and they fell, and needed forgiveness, true enough, but to condemn all the Noldor in exile for his sins? Fingolfin and his people largely did not participate in the killings, and they were the greatest part of the Noldor in Exile, yet fell beneath the same ban. I would be far more charitable if the ban was merely on those who participated in the slayings, as Elu Thingol banned the Noldor. So to underscore it all - yes, some of the exiles (particularly the house of Feanor), sinned and did terrible things in their exile, but they were in the minority of the Noldor, and I'm pretty sure kinslaying was their only sin. I just cannot find it in me to believe that desiring to settle in middle earth is a sin worth banning them for. The kinslayers are all but gone by the 3rd age, so I simply don't think there is a need to show symbolically forgiveness for those who did not sin.

As a fellow fan of the early years of Arda, I'm interested to see your response.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #5 am: 10. Jan 2016, 00:47 »
I won't reply to everything that probably deserves replying, but perhaps I'll do this later.
 - Elrond: Personally I think that the tornado is just so iconic and Elrond in general such a well made hero that I don't really like changing him in any way. Yes, it's not canon, but to be honest, practically every direct use of magic is not, so I don't really care for this. ;) However "Rejuvenation" is already ridiculously strong, just think about it: It enables you to cast every single ability of your heroes including their level 10 abilities a second time. I don't think this ability needs a single buff!
 - Hero units: Well, Imladris' hero unit roster has changed a bit, because both the sword bataillon from the barracks (is this the watchdog? I don't know its english name, but this truely sounds somewhat funny xD) and the Elven lords are gone now. I personally think that 2 hero units are completely enough, meaning besides Windriders and Lindon wardens there isn't really the need for more such units. Actually the Lindon wardens are kind of your Veterans, so no need for change. (Hope the Lindon wardens are hero units...)
 - Lindon stronghold: Is there really the need for more static defensive structues? Lindon watchtowers are already really strong and every arrow-shooting-building is decreasing the game's speed, because it creates fortified positions you need siege units for in order to engage them in combat.
 - Spellbook: I think there are some serious balance issues with this one:
   ---> "Friends of the Old Forest" was formerly a tier 3 spell and a pretty strong one, too. Summons like Shelob are already very strong, but she is still only one hero, while this would be two. Therefore I don't think the position should be changed.
   ---> "Smith-Lore of Gondolin and Eregion" is in my opinion just unnecessary. First of all this "upgrading upgrades" is Isengards business and their is reason for this. Secondly the knowledge of the Elven craftsmen is already included in the citadel of Imladris and its ability to buy a second tier of upgrades for their troops.
   ---> "Final Marshall of the Noldor" might sound like a funny idea, but that's actually totally against the lore, because the Elves are not leaving with a bang. It is a silent and sort of sad process which stretches over a long time, this concept of assembling their army for a last time and then leaving is simply not what happened. Also, because Arnor is a map-special, the flood is normally not in the game, thus being a wonderful spell for Imladris.
   ---> "Noldolantë" sounds actually totally OP, because it essentially combines both (anti-)Darkness (because Darkness does not debuff enemies, but buffs allies!) and Freezing Rain in one spell.



Apart from that, I like the Noldolantë part in your suggestion which sounds like a very nice addition and replacement for Cloud Break. The only problem might be that there is no reason why a lament would clear clouds, something every other weather spell does.
Also, this probably sounds totally negative, but that's likely because I like some current implementations a bit more, secondly because I like complaining and thirdly your suggestion is actually very well thought out, so this is nothing against you personally. ;)


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Melkor Bauglir
« Antwort #6 am: 10. Jan 2016, 01:12 »
No Problem. I guessed that most of these suggestions either were not balanced or unnecessary, but I just had to get them out and see if any of them were good.

About Noldolantë... It appears I haven't played base evil factions in so long I forgot what I'm talking about. I meant just the freezing rain debuff effect, not the leadership of darkness. And when I mean it replaces cloudbreak, I meant in the power tree, not in the fact that it clears the clouds, though if every weather spell does it I'm not sure if it could be avoided.

Hero units - In my personal opinion Imladris is the perfect faction to have multiple hero units, being few in number, and being able to access ancient knowledge and warriors with uncounted years of experience. However, if there are already 2, I can understand why there would not be a need for more.

Lindon Stronghold - I don't think we need more defensive structures, I just want another options on the outpost plot other then the Dunedain, and I agree with the team's decision that Rivendell would not extent outside its stronghold.

Powers - Friends of the old forest, I got it confused with another power in the 3.8.1 chart. I agree that it should be a tier 3 and that the Smith-Lore is unneeded. However, I have to make an argument for the marshall. While it's not totally lore-accurate (as you say, the end of the elves is a slow process, not a final battle), I thought it up to compensate for Rivendell's weakness of long-build times and high costs late game. In addition, if Rivendell ever came under a heavy siege, I could see it happening.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Walküre

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #7 am: 10. Jan 2016, 01:27 »

Before I won't be able to contain myself (since these matters are literally LIFE for me), I will just briefly summarise things  :)

The debate regarding the relationship between Fëanor (and all the Noldor as an extension) and the Valar is always so fascinating, and I have personally discussed with people who had too some doubts about the Archangels of the West, even at the point of considering them really 'cruel' and authoritarian in their own Blessed Realm.
Just like (as Tolkien, not surprisingly the Author of the very lore, often relates to) Fëanor and many other Noldor believed indeed (also due to the poisonous lies of Melkor) to have been trapped in a Golden Cage, far away from the really free and unexplored lands of Middle Earth, as if the Valar had wanted to contain the Eldar's power itself moved by fear.

Just remember that the Valar can make mistakes too by their inner nature, being Omniscience only a prerogative of Ilúvatar, but since they are immensely old, wise and holy beings, they have an absolutely clearer and deeper comprehension of the World's and Universe's events than the one of the Elves and Humans.
Tolkien states many times that most of what Melkor told the Noldor in Aman were terrible lies with more terrible intentions, as the later events showed.
And, let me say, the Valar eventually were right in their judgement, since not only did the Noldor never manage to recreate what they had experience of in Aman regardless of how many times they tried to (desiring in vain to have both the Bliss of Valinor and the Freedom of Middle Earth at the same time), but also they had to go through dreadful misadventures, many of which were caused by their very own actions.

The Vanyar never left Aman if not by the precise order of the Valar to fight the War of Wrath, and they have always been loyal to the Lords of Valinor relying spontaneously (by their own choice) on the Valar's wisdom and powers; the same spontaneous yet total Faith which religious people grant God.
They were thus immune to most of the Evil that the Noldor suffered, and never desired to leave the Immortal Lands, because they indeed TRUSTED the Valar.
I think that they eventually were wiser and right, while the Noldor weren't.

Ok, I was not so 'brief' in my summary  xD
Anyway, this is not really the proper thread to talk about pure lore matters.
If you want to start discussions of this kind that refer to this topic in the Annals of Aman thread, I will be more than happy to get myself involved into them  :)

http://forum.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,31019.msg393417.html#msg393417

About the spell, it's not really meant to represent that the Noldor were forgiven by recent or past sins that they had committed, or that they are still guilty of a terrible sin of that kind.

It is intended to show that Valinor has always been present for the Noldor in Middle Earth, and that it might help them in their darkest moments of need (darkening or general weather-related spells in the gameplay).
It is more of a memory (always vivid in the Eldar's mind) of the lifting of the Ban, after the First Age.

Remember though (maybe one of the 'cruel' judgements of the Valar) that the Valar, when the majority of the Noldor left Aman, consequently banished all of the ones who chose the Exile until the end of the First Age, whether they were the actual responsible of the known atrocities or not, including their future offspring, by depriving them of the possibility of returning again in Valinor until an opposite decision of the Valar themselves.
The Curse remained unaltered until the arrival of Eärendil in the Immortal Lands.
We could say that the Valar left the exiled Noldor to their own (mainly deserved) Destiny and to the undefeatable Evil of Morgoth for more than 500 years, even though they had warned them about what they would have faced in Beleriand.
« Letzte Änderung: 10. Jan 2016, 01:33 von DieWalküre »

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #8 am: 10. Jan 2016, 03:19 »
The rebellion was folly and the ban appropriate(not sure if it's fair to the children of the exiles), true, but I do not know if the blind faith of the Vanyar could be called wisdom. They were certainly wiser then the Noldor during the rebellion, but blind faith is only wisdom if you have faith in the right thing, which luckily they had.

For there are three ways of gaining wisdom; contemplation, which is noblest(the Valar), through imitation, which is simplest(the Vanyar), and through experience, which is most painful(the Noldor). This is what I mean when I say that the Noldor needed the rebellion. Though they had great knowledge in Valinor, they had no wisdom. Only through the suffering of Arda could they grow wise, and leave behind what I see as an infancy in Valinor. By the second or 3rd age I would consider them the wise elves, before that the honor belongs to the Vanyar and Teleri.

And I personally believe that Eru willed the rebellion. For though as you said, they had many sufferings of their own make, good was wrought from their folly. For without the rebellion, would the host of Valinor ever have sailed? Would Middle-Earth still be beneath Morgoth's Thrall?

I suppose that is why I feel so deeply in tune with the Noldor. They had to learn the lessons the hard way - they were flawed. Yet of all the elves none had a greater impact on the song, still strived to do right, even when they failed so monumentally.

I still believe there is nothing wrong with desiring both freedom and bliss, as the Noldor did, but after rereading both the fall of the Noldor and your posts, I no longer judge the Valar so harshly for their actions. I believe I was deluding myself, making out the Noldor to be more flawless then they were, when in-fact it was their flaws that made them great and impactful. So you have my thanks, DieWalküre.

I'll definitely check out the Annals of Aman, even though 1st and 2nd age Noldor is where my main lore focus is!
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

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Re: Imladris Suggestions
« Antwort #9 am: 11. Jan 2016, 17:40 »
Your insight into the various forms of Wisdom/Knowledge is extremely interesting.
I had not thought about that yet.

I would though stress the importance of the 'simple imitation' of the Vanyar that you referred to, as something deeply meaningful and reasonable, and not just merely the consequence of imitation (even though I kind of understand that you don't intend 'simple' as a degrading or undermining word).
The Vanyar indeed experienced some harshness in their early days as the other Elven kindreds through the Great Journey across Middle Earth that finally led them to Aman, after Arda was apparently freed from Morgoth, and the same Dark Lord was brought in chains in front of the Throne of Manwë in Valinor.
I'm sure that the Vanyar didn't only imitate the Valar, but they also insightfully understood and agreed with their judgement, as in the Vanyar's trust was necessarily present the awareness of what the actions and pride of Fëanor would have brought to the Eldar in case they had chosen the Exile.

So, we might say that the trust of the Vanyar (what Fëanor would have probably considered as a blind obedience) was not so 'blind', and that there could have easily been some 'contemplation' in it.
Ingwë, the High King of the Vanyar, is considered also the High King of all Elves not without a reason; one of the few that can have the privilege to dwell in the Halls of Manwë and Varda in Taniquetil  :)

Of course.
It's undoubtedly true that everything, even the most terrible thing, is eventually part of Ilúvatar's Plan, since it (Eru has no gender) is the only omniscient being who always existed in the Past, always does it in the Present and will always do in the Future (the real 'God').

Yes, I never implied that the Exile of the Noldor has never been something fundamental and useful; even because Galadriel (my favourite character) chose too the Exile and journeyed to Middle Earth through Ice and perilous places, following her family as a proud Princess of the Royal Family of the Noldor.
And, probably, I would like her less if she had not done that, becoming a really different Galadriel from the one of the lore  :P

What I want to mean is that, if the Valar have some faults, these faults are definitely to be seen in the fact of having often been too merciful and kindhearted, even with the Enemy himself.
So that their advice to the Eldar to remain in Aman was not a selfish will of having the Elves with them or depriving them of knowledge of the outer World, but the pitiful awareness of what the Eldar would have found (what the Noldor truly found) in Middle Earth.

Ok, after having answered these lore aspects, from now on I suggest everyone interested in this topic be as much as possible focused on making actual suggestions about Rivendell in the Edain Mod, as this thread clearly indicates  :)

VectorMaximus, I would be really enthusiastic to see you again in the Lore Section (the Lord of the Rings section in the Prancing Pony or the Annals of Aman) to continue this discussion or create other ones  ;)