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2 votes, pick your favourite ideas for improving Rohans late game.

Buff Melee Cavalry, either through a normal buff, Spellbook Power or buyable Upgrade
Buff Spear Throwers and Rohirrim Archers(mounted cavalry)
Give Rohan some economy upgrades, researchable at the citadel, armory, a new economy building or a new outpost
Give Rohan Heroes better stats while mounted(trample damage, slower trample deceleration, etc.)
Add some new units to the faction, recruitable at either a new outpost or the default buildings(Heavy Infantry/Cavalry, permanent Galadhrim summon)

Autor Thema: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas  (Gelesen 28192 mal)

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #15 am: 13. Jan 2016, 21:32 »
Zitat
So once again, why is Rohan the ONLY faction who is "not allowed" to have anything strong late game?
Mearas, decently strong supporting heroes, troops and spells, the SB-camp, Royal Guard, spear-throwers, etc. I'm not saying those are all the way they are supposed to be right now (*cough*spear-throwers*cough*), but there is no need in just reworking the entire faction and give them such ludicrous buffs to their cavalry, instead of making those things viable. Also: The military camp gives you an entire army of upgraded cavalry -yeah, they might be bugged and not get the armor upgrade, but still: On paper this makes up for a tons of expensive upgrades without discount.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: Please notice: I am not saying Rohan is perfect right now! But there are certainly more elegant and less generic ways of making them stronger, even if it's just solving some bugs and buffing useless units.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #16 am: 13. Jan 2016, 21:47 »
The spawn rate of the military camp is extremely slow, and those cavalry are still useless against pikes. Even if the bug was fixed and they received heavy armor and horseman shields. The only melee cavalry who stand a chance are Rohirrim of the Eastfold who can survive longer due to their formation, but they still lose.

You still have not addressed the fact that all the other factions have incredibly OP elements to them right now. The only way to fix this is to give Rohan something powerful, or to nerf all the OP elements, which makes the game much less fun. In addition, even if spear throwers were made useful, it would still be an infantry unit, and Rohan is supposed to be a cavalry faction.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #17 am: 13. Jan 2016, 21:57 »
Yes and a 100% cavalry army which actually can deal with pikes well enough to be viable is simply broken. Look, I don't think we will find an answer for these problems we can both agree on. We certainly both see the problems Rohan has, but I simply don't think your ideas are that great, to be honest. And yes, I might add, that I think this total cavalry focus doesn't and shouldn't work, so some other options are required. (I actually posted one idea in the German forum an hour ago.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #18 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:02 »
Well, if cavalry is not to be the focus of Rohan, what then should be done? Rohan has no heavy infantry beyond the Westfold Captains, and the team has refused to add any new infantry units. Should Rohan late game consist entirely of Spear Throwers? What was your idea posted on the German forums?
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

-Mandos-

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #19 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:16 »
In my opinion Rohans options in the late game should be weaker than those of other factions (like Isengard or Dwarves or whatever). That doesnt mean that they should be useless and without a chance but, as Melkor wrote in the german thread, but maybe in a more active and skill requiring way (that's why I dont like the idea of buffing the Mearas spell again in such a strong way even though I'm a fan of the Mearas in general).

Rohans late- game should therefore consist of several different units, meaning a mix of all their midgame options which are quite strong. If, for example, I focus on cavalry (of course) and westfold infantry in the midgame I can add other midgame options later so that I get the diversity of an actual late- game army.

To reach this point we dont even need fundamental changes, just a change of strength for some units (spear throwers), accessibility for others (for example permanent elven archers from Haldir) and some changes to the banner carriers which are quite fundamental for all kinds of Rohan tactics.
That means to win the late game the Rohan player has to keep an eye on all the different recruiting facilities and spells to provide a good support to his at least lvl 3 cavalry, so he can fight with upgraded peasants, Westfold Elite, Galadhrim and Rohan Archers/ spear throwers and of course the mighty cavalry forces. This resembles the character of a nation that is not prepared for a long war and therefore calls everyone to arms to win...
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #20 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:24 »
None of that is ever going to beat a fully upgraded Isengard army, Tower Guard spam or Dwarf Veteran spam, all of which are very easy to accomplish because of the powerful economies of these 3 factions. Against these 3 factions, Rohan stands no chance whatsoever late game.
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jan 2016, 22:32 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

-DJANGO-

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #21 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:27 »
Zitat
Make Rohan cavalry somewhat stronger, so that they could at least stand a fighting chance against pikes in late game.
- Totally disagree with you. I don't see any sense, why normal Riders should be able to have a chance against their counter. You just can't punish people for spaming Pikes, when its the normal counter to Riders. I agree that Rohan should get a better chance to deal with pikes. But I totally disagree, that the solution as you suggested lies in buffing the normal Cav!!! I don't know if you remember it, but in one patch Riders were buffed too much, making them OP against Pikes...
However I'm already suggesting for a long time an improvement for the light Cav in the German section. But my suggestion does not simply go into a "Buff-direction of Cav". I suggested A: that swordsmen should deal nearly no damage (and flank damage) against Riders. B: that Cav should not get so much deceleration, because it gets way too strong stuck in enemy units (especially riding out of enemy troops). The slowdown is already triggered by the clumping, which is an engine problem and can't be fixed easily.  => So improving this point, Rohan would benefit a lot, as it is mainly a Cav-faction.

Now back to reason, why you want to improve Rohans Cav., speak LG. => "What can, should Rohan be able to do against heavy pikes!":

1. Build Westfold Swordsmen, which are the counter to pikes.

2. Build Rohirrim-Archers. => At the moment they do quite moderate damage against heavy amored troops. I think buffing them especially against pikes, as in BFME1 would do a lot! In my eyes it would solve the problem. Archers on Riders are one of the strongest units which exist, because they can always ride away from their primary counter, pikes. That logically means, that they need to be weaker against enemy archers as melee Rider-types. Again therefore you have to possibility to upgrade them with heavy amor. Playing them with a good mirco, using shortkey "S" to hold them instant at one position, they become a unit which will always deal damage and can run away.

3. As Extra (for those who can't play with Rider-Archers): The suggestion of HAMAN. Spear-Throwers: Become the unit of the Rohirrim-Archers on foot. OR: they mainly stay the same, thus the best counter against Cav in the hole game. But get their palatir-ability will function "against the super Heavily Armored units".

4. Use the Royal Guard's ability.

Conclusion: I am totally against improving the standard Cav, so that they can "stand a fighting chance against pikes in late game".

Hope I made myself clear & we come to a result with wich anybody can live.
 :)
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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #22 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:34 »
It shouldnt...
Rohan will have to be very active, destroy enemy resource structures and kite the enemy army until they have a chance.
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #23 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:37 »
That's my point, Rohan will NEVER stand a chance against a full army of Isengard, Tower Guards or Dwarves. Its simply not possible to defeat a late game army of these factions with Rohans current roster. I have played many games as Rohan against every faction in the game, I have tried everything: Using infantry only, using cavalry archers only, using a mix of both, kiting enemy armies to go for the base and trading bases, nothing works. The armies are like invincible islands that your cavalry army cannot assault with any hope of victory. You can harass resource structures all day long, but at the end of it you still have to kill the enemy army to win. That cannot be done with Rohans current unit roster and economy issues.

Django, I agree that Rohirrim Archers should be stronger, however as I have already said, all you have to do to counter them is put some archers in the middle of your pikes, and the Rohirrim Archers become useless.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #24 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:41 »
Zitat
Again therefore you have to possibility to upgrade them with heavy amor.
;)
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #25 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:41 »
You can do that in the current version and archers still slaughter them. Try it out and see for yourself.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #26 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:45 »
- THE EAGLES ARE COMING -

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #27 am: 13. Jan 2016, 22:58 »
Did the enemy in this match have a full upgraded Isengard army, Gondor Tower Guard army with rangers, or Dwarf army? If not then its a moot example. Additionally, I would like a replay, because I know for a fact that an 1800 Rohirrim Archer army cannot trump either of these 3 factions.

Can you give me a fair reason why Rohan should be stuck with a bad late game? Is it just because they have a strong early game? Isengard, Gondor and Dwarves all have pretty good early games, so this isn't enough of a reason in my eyes. Right now, Rohan is handicapped for no reason, at least that's the way I see it. For the third time, every other faction has strong late game units and abilities that do NOT require intense micro or harassment, so what reason is there that Rohan should be the only faction that requires this of the player?
« Letzte Änderung: 13. Jan 2016, 23:22 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

-Mandos-

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #28 am: 13. Jan 2016, 23:27 »
Then that's the point: the earlygame of the other factions may be to good. A strong late game should come with a handicap in the earlygame and vice versa (in my opinion).

E.g. I'm a fan of stronger dwarven units that are more expensive etc etc.
A Túrin Turambar turún' ambartanen!
Túrin, master of doom, by doom mastered!

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas
« Antwort #29 am: 13. Jan 2016, 23:31 »
I don't really think its fair for any faction to be handicapped at any point of the game, that just makes for boring, "you must win at this point in the game or you lose" matches. All factions should have close to an equal chance at all stages in the game.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!