Rohan Late Game Improvement Ideas

[Hamanathnath]

Good to see a member of the team make a post in this thread

I can agree that balance between all the Factions can not be perfect.  It is impossible to have perfect balance.  There will always be someone with a slight advantage at every stage of the game. 

But unfortunately, that's not the case here.  Gondor, Dwarves, and Isengard can get to the point where no matter what you do as Rohan, you can not kill them.  There isn't even a chance.  (Assuming the players are of equal skill level, or course)

And it's not like what Gondor, Dwarves, or Isengard is doing to get in this situation is hard.  All they have to do is spam pikes (or veterans in the Dwarves case).  And as soon as they find out what faction you are, that's all they will do.  The reason they do this is because Rohan can't kill upgraded pikes with their weakness.  Peasants don't get anywhere when they attack Isengard pikes, Gondor Tower Guards, and especially Dwarven Veterans.  The only other way to kill them is Horse Archers, and even that can't happen because it only takes a few upgraded archers for your enemy and that strategy also fails. 

I'm not saying that if Cavalry are to charge head first into pikes the Cavalry should win.  But right now they don't do pretty much any damage.  It's not even close.  Pikes completely obliterate the cavalry no matter what you do. 

That is also a problem I have with Lothlorien's palace guard.  The team has said that Palace Guard are supposed to be specialized at killing cavalry, and not as good on anything else as other factions elite pikes.  But what's the difference right now between running cavalry into Isengard Pikes with ShieldBearers, Towerguards, and Palace Guard?  No matter what the cavalry get obliterated.  In fact, the Isengard pikes and Tower Guards have the advantage over the Palace Guards because they take less damage. 

All we r asking is that Rohan Cavalry don't get completely wrecked by Upgraded Pikes and Dwarven Veterans.  A good Rohan player should have a chance against these, but unfortunately right now they don't.

That and Rohan's economy needs some improvements.  It takes forever for Rohan to make money because of the lack of Economic upgrades outside Corrupted Theoden and Eomer, as well has the very high price of what they try to buy.  It take so long for Rohan to get a fully upgraded Army because of this.

And hopefully Spearthrowers get some improvements, but that's an entirely different discussion. 

I hope you understand where we are coming from when we ask for an upgrade like this.  Rohan should at least have a chance.   

[Adrigabbro]

I'm not sure I entirely agree on the economic aspect. Let the cavalry/pikes balance issue aside, Eomer does provide a lot of money with his passive ability (well, could provide if you were actually able to kill some enemy troops later on). So far, I always have a lot of money with Rohan from 30 minutes. Before that, Cruel Taxes helps quite well. I'm not saying Rohan get more money than everyone else, but considering how limited your options are in late game, the amount of money I generally earn has always proven to be enough for my needs. If Rohan gets better but more expensive options, my speech might change. However right now I kinda disagree.

As for late game options, I think we should first agree on the expectations:
~> Should Rohan late game army be 100% riders? Then a cavalry buff is welcome (both rohirrims, eastfold riders and mounted archers).
~> Should it be a main force of cavalry supported by some infantry or/and archers ? In that case it might not be necessary to buff riders, but one should take a look at improving peasants late game (and permanent Galadhrims? better spear thrower?)
That's my humble opinion on the matter.

[Elite KryPtik]

Well i had diffrent idea i would like to ask what is problem generally Rohan or Rohan Cavalry ?

Second maybe give Rohhirims and eastfold rohhirims formations instead of stances Like:
Anti Pike Formation ; horde changes thier formation buff type : +% to armor vs pike damage -% vs cavalry
Anti Sword Formation ; +% to armor vs swordsman - vs archers
Anti Archer formation ; +% to armor vs archers - vs pike
This are only examples you can develop and give values as you want this is only idea to buff CAVALRY in certain situoations . What more with diffrent type they can be slower / faster receive even maybe some upgrade like shield but this is little unlikly
whats more level 5 can grant boost like royal banner but harder to archive
LG is no matter what harder since rohan need not only defend himself but to attack with strategy Rohhirim Archers + Rohhirim/eastfold one using formations vs certian enemies like i mentioned above could be useful but this is little more work especialy when we ugprade them with armor/shields so edain proably need to make many neu armor I mean (attributes for certain stance no textures ;p)
I aggre with buff Archer Rohhirims vs Pike well this is all sorry for eng and i hope formations no matter what will be useful thanks and good lock with LG
PS : Minor changes to rest of factions would be good too somethink is to op make lees values
PS2 Rohan eco upgrade mentioned pages before is good for rohan to imo

I'm very sorry, but I really can't understand any of that. Please try to clean it up a bit.

Gnomi, thanks for the reply! You'll notice I said in the quote "close to an equal chance" not "an exactly equal chance". I will also say that the Edain mod is far from the balance of BFME1, and right now Rohan can actually do a fairly decent job against Mordor, unlike in bfme1.

As for anything else, Haman hit all the points, and there's no need for me to repeat them. I'll just say Its a real problem that regardless of how good you are, you cannot win late game. Worse, all the enemies have to do is sit in their exceptionally well defended bases and build their armies. So this forces exactly what you say you want to avoid: boring matches where players always win with the same strategy. Either Rohan must ram rush the enemy to finish them, before even getting out of the peasant stage of the game, or they will lose to pike spam. Its been like this ever since Pikes were buffed and trample deceleration was massively increased.

[-Mandos-]

Again, why is Rohan the only faction that should require a diverse mix of units, heavy micromanagement and harassment? You have given no good reasons to convince me so far. No other faction in the game has to deal with this, they can all get away with just building big armies and winning. So why should Rohan have to be the odd man out?

First reason is because it fits the style of the faction 
Rohan should currently be the most agressive faction out (only rivaled by the misty mountains) and therefore they are the only faction, again together with the misty mountains, that should, in my opinion, require more activity and more skill in the late game than the other factions to keep up or beat them. It shouldnt be impossible, but more difficult than just clicking on your castle and recruiting two or maybe three types of units... (And I can imagine a Rohan army winning against a dwarven army if all the things I mentioned would be possible)

As for why I dislike buffing cavalry: if I need too many pikes to stop cavalry or if they just trample through my units without getting slowed down properly it just feels stupid and useless and ruins the feeling and secondly a passive upgrade of that strength together with the already really strong and "passive" camp spell wouldnt fit the playstyle of Rohan as an active faction that much.

[Elite KryPtik]

Well, I don't agree that it fits the "style" as you call it, of the faction. They have a pretty strong army in the lore. This is regardless though, because right now it is impossible to win against Isengard, Dwarves and Gondor, unless you do it in the first 10 minutes. Right now there is precious little reason to even get a stables, your far better off just making all flour mills and spamming peasants like crazy, and then quickly ram spamming the enemy once you have map control. Adding more infantry or buffing infantry is not going to fix this problem, in fact it will make it worse. So if something is not done to make cavalry USEFUL then people are just going to avoid it entirely, unless cavalry is also buffed alongside adding the new infantry. If the team wants Rohan to function as a cavalry faction, that cavalry needs to be stronger. Otherwise Rohan is going to remain as the one-dimensional rushing spam faction that cannot win late game.

[Slawek56703]

Good I hope that this time it will be possible to read.
My idea is based to remove the formation of the Rohirrim and the Rohirrim of Eastfold.
It was discussed to improve the cavalry against the enemy, not an option no new entity or any amendment in the armor, so I thought of a special formation against such entities as Gondor Tower Guards / Dwarf Veterans / Isengard Shieldbearers
Instead of the previous stances Aggressive / Defensive / and Battle. How does it work ? Already I translate
Aggressive Stance converted into formation against archers - Unit receives 30% armor against arrows and buildings. However, it receives a negative effect and receives 30% weaker armor against pikemen or soldiers or cawalerii
Battle Stance turns on the formation against the troops
Unit receives 30% damage against the troops also the heavy battalions, but have weaker armor against buildings and archers.
Defensive Stance turns on the formation against pikemen. The unit receives 30% or more armor against pikemen but they can not be crushed. In addition, as a negative efect may have weaker armor against the troops. Of course, all formations who against whom and how inflicts damage or armor gets what may be converted and changed by Edain Team or anyone. Just the idea of ​​formations came into my mind, because it seems to me that the cavalry could be effective in a given situation against a foe. But at the same time less effective if the enemy will select the appropriate units. But we know that the cavalry is based on speed so it should make it run away to camp or better castle unless you enemy surrounds you every Rohan player should not under any circumstances afford. And in the camp or to escape the Rohirrim Rohirrim may be accompanied by archers who can focus on each other enemy units or shoot while moving. If the idea sucks just put away I do not have nothing to lose but I wanted to be understandable and possible to read. Thanks and sorry for my first post.

[Hamanathnath]

Good I hope that this time it will be possible to read.
My idea is based to remove the formation of the Rohirrim and the Rohirrim of Eastfold.
It was discussed to improve the cavalry against the enemy, not an option no new entity or any amendment in the armor, so I thought of a special formation against such entities as Gondor Tower Guards / Dwarf Veterans / Isengard Shieldbearers
Instead of the previous stances Aggressive / Defensive / and Battle. How does it work ? Already I translate
Aggressive Stance converted into formation against archers - Unit receives 30% armor against arrows and buildings. However, it receives a negative effect and receives 30% weaker armor against pikemen or soldiers or cawalerii
Battle Stance turns on the formation against the troops
Unit receives 30% damage against the troops also the heavy battalions, but have weaker armor against buildings and archers.
Defensive Stance turns on the formation against pikemen. The unit receives 30% or more armor against pikemen but they can not be crushed. In addition, as a negative efect may have weaker armor against the troops. Of course, all formations who against whom and how inflicts damage or armor gets what may be converted and changed by Edain Team or anyone. Just the idea of ​​formations came into my mind, because it seems to me that the cavalry could be effective in a given situation against a foe. But at the same time less effective if the enemy will select the appropriate units. But we know that the cavalry is based on speed so it should make it run away to camp or better castle unless you enemy surrounds you every Rohan player should not under any circumstances afford. And in the camp or to escape the Rohirrim Rohirrim may be accompanied by archers who can focus on each other enemy units or shoot while moving. If the idea sucks just put away I do not have nothing to lose but I wanted to be understandable and possible to read. Thanks and sorry for my first post.

I don't think this is a good idea.  People can switch between stances very quickly, and if a player knows what he is doing it will turn the Cavalry into the Unkillable Death Machines we don't want them to turn into.  Cavalry still need a counter.

[Slawek56703]

@Hamanathnath
And what if we add to each formation time I have in mind such a situation you activate one formation and it works as in the case of Arnor hero that activates the bonus for cavalry, archers or soldiers? Not a bad idea so that each battalion of cavalry will be able to fight on many fronts. So there are three formations each formation has its advantages and disadvantages select one and only this one since then is additionally appropriate time when we can use it again. (And here is the choice of 1 of 3 or 1 formation and the rest will be disabled.) What do you think?

[Skeeverboy]

A timer isn't possilbe for formations.

[Slawek56703]

@Skeeverboy
I was thinking something like activated power or something like Aragorn Blade Master. But I understood what was going on if we have 3 Anti formations against certain unit then it may look like I mentioned above, the hero of Arnor his name Araphrant if I write well. He can choose who gets the morale of soldiers, archers, cavalry.And thats how it can look like.

[Hamanathnath]

There just fundamental problems with the suggestion.  Even with a timer, because cavalry are faster then pikemen, it makes it too easy when fighting something other then pikes to just run away and switch forms if pikes come.  I would also make cavalry insanely strong against everything else.  And why would Rohan cavalry have an ability like this, and not any other cavalry from other factions?  And what would the difference between Rohirrim and Rohirrim of the Eastfold with this change?

I appreciate that you are trying to come up with an idea to fix this problem, but I still don't think this is a good way to do it. 

[Odysseus]

I am with Haman on this. The natural counter is the pike/spear and should remain the pike/spear. The problem is that Rohan's light cavalry is not tanky enough to deal with late-game upgraded armies. Especially when it comes to trampling units. Their damage, however, is fine.

[Joragon]

But the main problem in my opinion is not that Rohans Rohirrim are too weak against spears. Probably that's one problem, but the main thing is that Rohan doesn't has quite good alternatives to Rohirrim. They need too much time to upgrade their peasants so that they can deal with other factions in MG or LG.

Just making Rohirrim better against spears would actually cause that the only opinion for Rohans enemy is to spam spears because nothing else is enough effective against Horses.

So I think it has to be changed that the Rohirrim should probably do a bit more damage against Spearmen AND to change that it is attractive for the enemy to not only build pikes.
Rohans other Units like peasants should be improved, not in there direct strength, but probably it should be easier to upgrade them.

So then the enemy don't spams pikes in this mass and Rohirrim are more effective.
LG
Joragon

[Morwereth]

Well, I have been following this forum for months but I did not fancy writing. Until I saw this thread. 

I don't remember when, Team metioned that they don't want to give more than one ability/stance to basic units. So I think Slawek's idea can't be used for basic units at least.
 
All factions have elite/heroic units which make trouble for opponent. Besides, Gondor and Dwarves have good cavalry and ram riders although they suppose to be infantry based faction. These two factions give a player an oppurtunity to support his army with good cavalry.

Rohan doesn't have proper infantry (except glitched westfold swordmen) for countering enemy pike spam. Team doesn't want to add units for Rohan so player has only two choices: peasant spam or buffed cavalry.

Why Rohan (cavalry faction) must spam peasants to win this game? I don't think most of people are happy while they're playing with Rohan. Spamming weak infantry like Mordor is not lore-wise or fun at all.

I like KryPtik's idea. Purchasable upgrade from armoury (or Spellbook) would improve Rohan's gameplay significantly. As much as i read, there are some inconveniencies for this idea.

1) New buff turn Rohirrim to a warmachine.

This buff can be configurable after testing process. We don't want Rohirrim to wreck all pikes via trampling. However, if cavalry faction can't hold against enemy pike spam why would people want to play with Rohan? If Rohirrim of Eastfold become tankier with this buff, player can support them with Rohirrim Archers. This gives player a chance in LG.

2) Players would not have an option with this buff in spellbook.

Well, I haven't seen any people who choose military camp first. If this upgrade will be purchasable via spellbook, it can be added bottom of military camp. Also players who play with dwarves mostly go for Final Stand. We all know how it is effective with dwarven veterans.

I would like to see it in armoury though. I also support Hamman's Grand Harvest suggestion. It can be purchasable on new Outpost. I think big-village concept will work fine for this upgrade.

My suggestion is about Eomer. He seems like more unit supporter than mass slayer. His piercing spear, memorial and ride of the exiled skills don't fit with his role. Perhaps Team may want to change him a bit. If he is an unit supporter, new buff would be his level 10 passive skill. If he stays as a mass slayer I think his skills should be changed entirely. Rohan heroes except Theoden usually strong in EG an MG. Improvement of Eomer would give option to player in LG. Perhaps his cost can be 1800.

I try to explain my thoughts as much as i can, I hope it can be helpful.

[Slawek56703]

Okay, so the conversion stances into formation does not make sense. While it is true I have to admit you're right in the long run, this sucks. I do not know why but still I'd like something to think about with formations. So maybe the existing formations change to activate powers to make them more useful. Formation maintained at 20 seconds, and recycling is possible after 60 seconds. The formation is similar (in Edain 3.8.1 to Imladris), and now similar to Rohan Archers who also have activated power. Besides that you mentioned about why other cavalry units can not have anything like this, the reason is so that each faction has something unique example wargs Isengard have the power to heal themselves, I know it's not free is just an example. Besides, if you say that it will be too similar to another faction in this case to Imladris that this fraction can get something else such as joining battalions of archers and pikemen / soldiers. Do not forget that if we want to maintain Rohan as fractions of cavalry and LG has to be balanced, it can not do without changing other units of the faction, and how we might damage the balance of the game. I do not understand the problem of the economy, even if you raise the amount of resources for Rohan and lasted for LG, it would end up with the cavalry it is logical and additionally canonical from the movie and the book. And is it really Rohan needs support in LG? If so, perhaps only this mysterious outpost can change the situation for Rohan.
PS : Outpost is LG solution
Edit is was answer to Haman i write longer since Google Translator ;p