The Lidless Eye

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Removed

[Odysseus]

I don't think this is necessary. Saruman's Citadel mechanic is unique to Isengard and should remain unique to Isengard. ET are heavily in favour of differentiating as many mechanics as possible. Also, Sauron is not the weakest hero in the game. Far from it, in fact. I wonder when people will realise that they need to stop trying to use Sauron as a Hero Killer, and use him as an Army Supporter and Mass Slayer instead. Lore-wise, Sauron's strength was actually diminished in the 3rd Age, due to his massive loss at the hands of the Last Alliance at the end of the 2nd Age. Still, if the mod were to portray Sauron with his strength in the books, Mordor would be unbeatable. I don't think that's fun or fair at all.

[The_Necromancer0]

First, Welcome to the forums 
Seconds, you sure bit off a lot didn't you?
Third:
An interesting idea but for a couple reasons I believe that this won't happen although it would be pretty cool. First of all the fire-form is more lore accurate than the eye which was PJ adaptation. Sauron actually had a physical body during the War of the Ring.  As for the second issue you've mentioned it yourself: it isn't unique. And as a third point you mention that Sauron is the weakest hero in the game? Are we talking about the same Sauron? His abilities and many forms makes him the most versatile hero in the game. Powering him up anymore would be just giving the victory to Mordor against any other faction. Sauron is the most developed heroes totaling 7 forms and a wide arsenal of abilities. I think that if there is a way to improve Mordor it is not in Sauron

Anyways, hope you don't take this personally I'm just giving out my honest opinion. Keep posting and keep suggesting because the Edain Mod is there because people suggested stuff. Also remember to support your suggestions with varied arguments not just "it's cool" or "I like it".

Sincerely,
The Necromancer

[Walküre]

I basically agree with any of the considerations made above.

Furthermore, apart from the problematics concerning the uniqueness of the Saruman's system and the gameplay and lore role of Sauron in the late Third Age, I also believe that it's highly unlikely that an iconic and memorable spell from BFME1 like the Eye of Sauron will ever be changed; as I believe that also many other iconic elements in the game (such as the clouds break spell's design or the Wizard's Blast) should remain unaltered, to create a sort of balance between the needed and famous innovations of the Edain Mod (which are the majority) and the roots of the glorious past of the BFME serie 

But, as the Necromancer wrote, don't worry, this is not a test in which everyone should necessarily be proven right or wrong in the end.
Suggestions are made and discussed daily, and the Edain Team looks almost at all of them one way or the other, because they obviously have the final word on anything.
I hope to see something else of your ideas here, in this forum.

Remember, rarely does a sole idea from one single person manage to be the exact and perfect suggestion; debates and discussions among different people often bring life to greater proposals 

[Elite KryPtik]

Everybody else already nailed the points, its not unique and wouldn't be balanced, Sauron is already the best hero in the game. In addition, Mordor as a faction is currently the strongest and easiest to play in the game, if anything it needs a nerf in a couple of areas.(Except Trolls, who are underpowered)

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

guys I didnt say I want him to have more damage points or more health points I know he already have enough of that , I just said it will be very nice to see him as a flaming eye on the tower watching and helping his army as he always do in the game and the movie  and I feel this will make him more unique and (how can i say it) leader style , in return of the king when the black gate open and you see the eye on the tower you can feel his power and  leadership

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6t4xMgrpjBs

now imagine the same scence but sauron not on the tower instead of that there is a statue for an eye .

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

http://www.moddb.com/members/warlord5/videos

[Odysseus]

I know it looks pretty cool, but it's out of proportion to affect Edain gameplay in any way, I'm afraid. It's like having Minas Tirith as your starting Citadel in every match. It's almost impossible to do justice gameplay-wise, and lore-wise even more so.

Still, you could make your own Barad-Dûr map. That way, it won't go to waste!

Kind regards.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

but if you played as Isengard you will notes that you can always make Orthanc Tower your base in any map and saruman can enter it and do some stuff , why is that unfair ? its not like your base have 10000 health points , its a just a hero on top of a tower with some cool abilites and awesome looking

[The_Necromancer0]

While it is true that it looks like the orthanc it is never stated as being so, simply a upgrade that coats it in orthanc-like material. I understand that you really want this to happen because it would definitely blow the minds away and it would be pretty cool. But however there are no other points apart from that, every suggestion that was accepted brought something that was missing to the game. You know the old saying: Don't fix what's not broken. It is also key to remember that the Team already has their hand full with Angmar.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

you are right about it is never stated as being Orthanc and there is no need to state this tower as Barad-Dûr  ,however I am not trying to fix what's not broken I am trying to help Perfecting this awesome mod , I mean if the mod is amazing why not make it more amazing? we cant just put what is messing and fix bugs or balance we must add a Beauty , create an epicness feelings when you play , btw I understand the Team is Currently Busy working on Angmar , I will be very happy if they added The Lidless Eye in patch 4.4 or even patch 4.5 with MM or Imladris .

[Odysseus]

It's because ET wants to avoid doublistic mechanics among factions. Although it looks like Orthanc, it's not Orthanc. Nonetheless, this way of defending the citadel was deemed a unique characteristic for Isengard and has since been kept. If we give it to Mordor as well, it's not unique anymore, it means that both factions have additional overlap. Most evil factions already have very similar playstyle, namely spamming units. For them to be more distinguished, different features were given in other aspects of the faction. Isengard with economics and base defense, Mordor with Sauron's influence and free Orcs among some of the defining characteristics of the factions.

Aesthetics are important, but gameplay is a priority and has precedence over aesthetics. Mordor already has way too much stuff they can use, and they are arguably the strongest and most specialised faction. Easiest to learn and to master of all the races too, which is rather strange for being such a specialised faction.

What more can people want for Mordor? A Mount Doom summon?
 
In all seriousness, it essentially has to do with bloating design. Most succesful mods and games have transparent and simple design, with each mechanic and unit being assigned a specific role in which it can excel. Furthermore, if all roles are fulfilled, adding new stuff basically creates excess and bloats the design, making it less transparent and confusing. Less is more, is the key mentality that is being hinted at here.

I hope you can understand this. It will probably never happen unless you make your own map or (sub)mod. ET is already quite satisfied with Mordor's design as well, so I hope you will keep making suggestions, and not stop because this one was shut down.

Kind regards.

[Melkor Bauglir]

@Odysseus: +1
Really not much to add from my side. I can see the appeal of such an idea, but Mordor and Sauron are already complex enough and the Eye of Sauron is already in the game, so I don't think there is a particular need for this change apart from being cool. (Even I haven't thought about this or seen a suiting way to include it and I definitely did spent a lot of time modifying Mordor. )

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Walküre]

Even though I too think that this proposal has realistically not many chances to be implemented in the game, the thread is not shut down yet.
Albeit being certainly able to close it, I always tended to lock topics that really needed to be locked due to their evident conceptual inconsistency, or because they were previously rejected by the Edain Team many times (for example: Mirkwood as an independent faction, Arnor playable with the switching mechanism of the Dwarven factions, characters and heroes from the First Age or different timelines,...).
In this case, I believe that all the considerations made above (including mine) are indeed valuable and provide solid facts for a rejection; but they are still suggestions of ours, and not official statements, nor is the proposal itself (although raising various problematics) so manifestly impossible.
Therefore, I think that we should wait for a response by the Edain Team, to give a definitive answer to this.

Regardless of that, I want to briefly address Witch-king of Angmar, if I can give him an advice 

It's not really that yours or other past and future proposals are 'unfair', or that we are solely focused, on the forum, on discussing bugs or gameplay/balance issues; it's not really so strict, otherwise the very MU would be a bit lifeless, I guess.
As pretty much everyone rightly referred to, there are various aspects, from gameplay/balance to the lore and other conceptual themes, which must inevitably be kept in mind everytime you want to give a valuable suggestion and hope it will be implemented; because the Edain Mod is always a work-in-progress and quite voluble project, but it's also true that its high standards are based on the solid Harmony (and consequent boundaries) I was relating to above, among all the fundamental pillars of the Mod itself (graphics, lore, balance, gameplay,...).
I'm sure that everyone has great and very creative ideas, but if you really want to come up with something really useful, you should really take into consideration those quite defined general borders, though difficult it could initially seem to.
Obviously, this is not something innate and compulsory from the beginning, but more a kind of general awareness that everyone has somehow achieved through the attendance of the forum and of this great Community.

I believe that you will easily get used to this approach as many of us did, if you really want to meaningfully contribute to the improvement of the Edain Mod 

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

It's because ET wants to avoid doublistic mechanics among factions. Although it looks like Orthanc, it's not Orthanc. Nonetheless, this way of defending the citadel was deemed a unique characteristic for Isengard and has since been kept. If we give it to Mordor as well, it's not unique anymore, it means that both factions have additional overlap. Most evil factions already have very similar playstyle, namely spamming units. For them to be more distinguished, different features were given in other aspects of the faction. Isengard with economics and base defense, Mordor with Sauron's influence and free Orcs among some of the defining characteristics of the factions.

I agree with you about this every faction should have its own unique style and the lidless eye shouldnt change this ,it should be a massive influence by Sauron ( like watching lands , adding leadership bouns to his armys and casting fear in enemy's hearts )  not economics and base defense like Isengard , btw in gondor faction you can get faramir's father (forgot his name) he always stand in the tower with some abilites but it doesnt look similer to Isengard I mean even if Sauron can enter the base if we gave him a unique system we will still have a unique style for every faction becouse there is many ways to deploy the lidless eye in the game.

EDIT: guys , last night Greatgoblin posted on moddb a message that aid my idea and he came up with a very interesting idea too i will paste it here for you guys and i hope you like it :
"Dear Edain Team

The thing is lidless eye idea for sauron is great.I know ppl like gorthaur as he is(...).But i have come with an idea.U created a great system for ring which is for example when galadriel gets the ring she has 2 options blessed or cursed!BRILLIANT!!!U can make the same system for ''sauron for power of the past ages''(I could remember wrong).So we can choose (...)gorthaur or an altered version of wandering shadow(with altered skills n all burning lidless eye).
This idea is completely lorefriendly even we can say with turning him to an aggrassive caster Mordor is becoming totally complete(I already have 9 nazguls for close combat dont need 1 more sword).With that improvement Mordor has a great caster n nuker(hi spell damage) and its so much closer to Tolkien's work and trilogy.
Best part is noone is unhappy at the end.U like (...)gorthaur well u have it.U want an agrassive caster well u have it too u can choose!
At the end its u r chose to kill other heros with sword or u can crisp them to death.

Ur fellow friend Greatgoblin".

[Odysseus]

In that case, you need to work out this concept into more detail. What will it add that the other forms of tower supervisor entities do not have? Costs? Functions?

Greatgoblin's idea is somewhat interesting, but at the same time, Mordor does not need it at all. If this ever happens, it will probably when the mod is finished completely or if ET decides to change their mind about being satisfied with Mordor's design, but I really doubt that.

Furthermore, Sauron is already a very aggressive caster as it is. His Fire Form abilities are so useful to disrupt enemies, both units and heroes, while his shadow form does decent supporting damage and can be very annoying in general. It's commonly known that Greatgoblin is not a fan of Gorthaur's current look and that he looks ''geyy!11!1!''. Just for the team to update some of the older models and it's all good.

Finally, lore-wise, there is only 1 Lidless-Eye, and it's in Barad-Dûr, not on some nameless outpost.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Furthermore, Sauron is already a very aggressive caster as it is. His Fire Form abilities are so useful to disrupt enemies, both units and heroes, while his shadow form does decent supporting damage and can be very annoying in general.

well , that is true he is very good hero indeed but now you are giving him an 10 magic points power and discarding "power of past ages" so The Lidless Eye should be as powerfull or usefull as balrog or army of death or any other 10 points power in any faction

, lore-wise, there is only 1 Lidless-Eye, and it's in Barad-Dûr, not on some nameless outpost.

i am not saying there will be more than one and lore-wise there is only 1 minas morgol or dul guldor but we can build these castles in gameplay , I know what you mean but this is a game and we must not stick our selfs to movies or books's scenarios , like i am playing mordor against Imladris in revindel map and i have sauron here level 10 and every thing but guess what he cant turn to Lidless Eye , Sauron: "sorry gang but i have to be in bara dur this tower is not enough for me" why not? the dark lord is HERE HIMSELF and he cant!! its not like I wont the entire Barad-Dûr tower to be in revendil its ONLY sauron that is important to do this , and i thought about what you said that i should make a Barad-Dûr map but what is the point? you will get tow saurons that way one on Barad-Dûr up there and one down there wt.. O.o i cant do this map if edain team didnt create the lidless eye first then i can make it and it will be One Sauron who can enter baradur wich is completely lorefriendly and awesome at the same time .

In that case, you need to work out this concept into more detail.

you are right , i need to explain all the details of the idea more , but i think i will do this after an hour cuz i kinda busy right now , btw you really need to take it easy on me man XD , come on we all know this idea will be amazing , I dont think Mordor will need any thing after The Lidless Eye is done

[Odysseus]

I'm sorry if I came across as rude, that was not my intention. It's my way of explaining things on the internet, I'm afraid. Direct and merciless .

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

its okay buddy dont worry i hope you to stand by my side and agree with me

-The Lidless Eye-

it is a 10 magic points power you can chose { The Power of The Past Ages or The Lidless Eye }
(just like galadril's system with the ring when you can chose if she will take it and be cursed or
refuse it and be blessed)

how does it work?

you select a citadel and then it will be count as your main base wich is the only one Sauron can enter
its tower and be the eye ( note: once Sauron entered the citadel you cant order him to get out , you must wait untill
the enemy destroy your citadel )

what abilites will The Lidless Eye have ?

it will have 3 unique abilites wich are:
1-The all seeing eye(requires sauron level 3) : you will get a very big range of vision around your base for one minute.(its nice to
hear some sound effect when you use this ability like sauron saying"you cant hide i see you there is no live in
the void only death")
2-The Eye's command(requires sauron level 7) : The Lidless Eye light the sky with Red lightnings(the thunder sound effect will be awesome  )
 wich is a signal of The final assult that will cast fear in enemy's hearts and the war chant starts
,all your troops will get 50% damage points and 20% speed points for 30 second ,all your opponet's troops will get -30%armor for 30 second
 (I got this idea from the books when Sauron light the sky with red lightings as a signal for the Witch-King to begin the war and attack minas tirith)
(about mordor's war chant we can use the war chant when the black gate opens its very badass and fit perfectly)
3-The Wrath of The Lidless Eye(requires sauron level 10): The Lidless Eye will cast a burning flames on a certin area turning it to dust
( this ability is strong vs enemy's troops but its weak vs enemy's heroes and buildings ) (this ability cant be used behind the eye (behind the citadel)
so chosing the main base is a key that will serve your strategy in the battle)

what will happen when the main base of Mordor fall ?

1-Sauron dies (actually turn to black ghost cuz he dont die in the game)
2-you lost the lidless eye so you have to wait untill the cool down of it
  then you can use it again after rebuilding your citadel.
(the fall of the lidless eye's animation can be get from bfme1 in last mission of good factions ,
the Team just have to make it work on the citadel and add his magic touch)

actually I have made a video for the lidless eye imagning how will it looks like and I have posted it on my page
and it was for fun so sorry for the bad making , here is the link: http://www.moddb.com/members/warlord5/videos

I dont think Mordor will ever need any thing after The Lidless Eye idea is done.

Sincerely,
The Witch-King

[lordoflinks]

Out of curiosity would this idea be possible as a map feature?

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

lets say I will definitely make a "Barad-Dûr" map when this idea is done.

[lordoflinks]

I think you misunderstood me, what I mean is, is it possible to program this feature in as a custom map rather than have Edain Team do it. If so Witch-King you could learn how to do it and do a series of custom maps.