Isengard's Base

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

-Isengard base-

hi everybody
as everyone knows Edain Team is trying to make every faction unique and have Special playing style and this is absolutely amazing
however i have noticed Isengard's base is very much similar to Mordor's base , as every one knows Mordor and MM have
unending hords of orcs thats why there is no need for walls but isengard dont have this thing , it is ture the uruk-hai are maybe the strongest
infantry in Middle-Earth and Isengard is a sieging Faction so if we add walls it will turn to op Faction ,
 so my idea is we delet all the little towers building blots and add Isengard's wall but you cant build on these walls any thing
unlike gondor , Angmar , Imladris or any other faction that can build catapults or towers on there walls , Isengard's base will have non of these
and this will make the base more unique becouse for now it is just the exact mordor base looking so we turn it to a base that have walls and no towers
 and it is important to remember that Mordor is way stronger in seige than Isengard and in the orginal game Isengard have walls but cant be build on it
 towers or catapults like gondor , while Mordor and Goblinse dont have any walls becouse of thier unending hords
and Mordor's seige towers cant go throw gates while Isengards ledders can(I have tried it)so the idea is possible
, Isengard should be better in economic and defence system than mordor thats way the walls will be fitting just perfect.

now lets move to the beauty section :
the walls will be the orginal Isengard's wall from isengard map , and for good looking we can put some white lins on the ground
like in Isengard map ,and about Isengard's citadel's upgrades I came up with idea dont put them around the citadel only we can put them all over the base
it will be very unque base , I like how Lothlorien's base is very unique and I want Isengard to be unique also not just Mordor copie paste base

however I will make a video for this suggestion showing you guys how i am imagined it cuz maybe i am not that good in explaining ,
i will upload it right after posting this suggestion and i hope this time it will be in better quality than The Lidless Eye one

Sincerely,
The Witch-King

EDIT: here is the video guys : http://www.moddb.com/members/warlord5/videos/isengards-base#mediaform
lol

[Walküre]

As long as I appreciate your pure and sincere passion, I have to disagree completely with you 

Your proposal would basically disrupt the conceptual harmony among the good and evil factions that has been followed so far in the construction of the factions themselves; like a sort of 'common law' that ties the factions to each other.

I will explain it simply.
Only Angmar and Lothlórien are currently the sole exceptions among their groups (good and evil).
Lothlórien is the only good faction with no walls, but endowed with a particular system of defence based on sentinels, a healing aura and the magical mist (a general defensive system that has its core in the castle itself, as the central importance of Caras Galadhon in the lore).

On the other hand, Angmar will be the only faction with walls among the evil ones, being quite an exception itself, for its particular timeline and characteristics.

Please, don't take this as a common 'cold disapproval'.
But, as I and other people already suggested in your previous proposal, pure aesthetic reasons (that are nonetheless important as well) become definitely secondary beside such fundamental aspects like balance, gameplay and conceptual differentiation/innovation/pillars-from-BFME1.

I can't see the point of Isengard having walls.

P.S. I edited your post.
Double comments should be avoided according to the rules, unless they are strictly necessary.

[Odysseus]

+1 to the moderatorman lol.

In all seriousness, I believe ET is pretty satisfied with the Isengard's current design and I share their opinion. Also, in the pvp community, we are pretty used now to playing with and against Isengard, the way it currently is. Adding walls is going to make them even stronger, which is not what Isengard needs because it looks cool. If it didn't affect gameplay, it might not have been too bad, but it does, so there's that.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

actually i dont know how to edit Sorry ,

Your proposal would basically disrupt the conceptual harmony among the good and evil factions that has been followed so far in the construction of the factions themselves; like a sort of 'common law' that ties the factions to each other.

I can't see the point of Isengard having walls.

becouse I want it to be unique , there is no faction with walls and no towers , and dont you notice that  "sort of 'common law'" is in the way of making every faction with its own style ,

 pure aesthetic reasons (that are nonetheless important as well) become definitely secondary beside such fundamental aspects like balance, gameplay and conceptual differentiation/innovation/pillars-from-BFME1.

ofc it is I completely agree , please tell me your opinion why this idea will break the balance of Isengard ? this idea will remove all the little towers wich is a heavy lost but it will be replaced by a wall without any defences (towers,catapults,etc..) and dont forget Isengard is weak in early game and dont have the endless number of troops wich is a thing that in  common between Mordor and MM only
now if we dont affect the "fundamental aspects" then the Priority is for the "pure aesthetic reasons"

EDIT: I will go sleep now and I am sure I will find a giants disapproval replays tommorw as always this is not easy , i hope you look at the positive parts.

[Walküre]

Editing is quite simple: there is the feature Modify on the top of every post of yours on the right 

My concern for the disapproval of your proposal consists mainly of that harmony I was referring to, that could be regarded as a conceptual and gameplay general element, intended as something that transcends the various and specific differences of each faction.

We are talking about factions with walls, and factions that don't have them.
Talking about walls but not towers, towers but not walls, bridges on trees or any other further specificity is a bit misleading and redundant, I would say 
As if I used as an argument the fact that Mordor is the only faction to have as leader a Maia ('true' Maia, not the Istari), or that Rohan is the only faction with a horsewoman hero among its ranks...
They are true points, but they don't really add so much to the discussion.

The common law/policy I mentioned involves all the factions as a whole, creating common standards and characteristics recognisable among them, in a very general perspective.
Of course, uniqueness and creativity are one of the beating hearts of the Edain Mod, but this doesn't necessarily imply the addition of the most diverse elements in a very confusing way, because it would really disrupt that same harmony we are talking about.
This is the aspect I was focusing on the most.

Regarding the balance, Odysseus already answered you.
I'm honestly not a master of balance, but I'm definitely quite sure that implementing walls for a faction like Isengard will definitely have significant consequences.
Isengard relies on the solid lines of its armoured and advanced infantry, which serves as a sort of shield at times (and this is not just a metaphor); I don't think that its combination with walls won't alter anything at all.
Nevertheless, in case you needed more specific information, you can always ask Beta Testers/Balance Testers that are really into these matters; undoubtedly more skilled and experienced than me 
Like Odysseus, in this case, since he already joined the debate too 

[Hamanathnath]

I do think that a walled Isengard base would look very cool, but as people said, there would have to be some major balance changes.  And also, to keep it consistent with the first Battle for Middle Earth game, I prefer the setup that exists now.

I don't agree that Isengard's base isn't unique.  While it does look similar to Mordor's base, that doesn't mean it is exactly like Mordor's base.  What Isengard has different from Mordor is the Citadel upgrades, which make them very different from other factions, as well as manually upgrading your sentry towers with the Steel Bolts.  And the Wizards Tower is in my opinion the most unique defensive tactic in the game. Mordor on the other hand has the citadel build plots and has to upgrade its towers via Influence of Sauron.  Little things like that make Isengard's base different from Mordors. 

[Sawman]

So am I the only one that liked this idea?

Well I had this same idea a long time ago but mine was a little different and I didn't know if it was possible but my idea was that once you got the wizard tower upgrade then you had the option to upgrade your base with walls and it would be very expensive but that would compensate for the extra protection and balance

[The_Necromancer0]

I think it would look cool, but as people have mentioned there would be balancing issues and it would feel... wrong.... Also that would make Isengard the only faction that has no aggressive base defense system. Very weak to an early rush. I think this should be put into context that they would be beaten because they would be unable to resist an early rush.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

I think it would look cool, but as people have mentioned there would be balancing issues and it would feel... wrong.... Also that would make Isengard the only faction that has no aggressive base defense system. Very weak to an early rush. I think this should be put into context that they would be beaten because they would be unable to resist an early rush.

as you know the gates and the walls need siege machines to destroy it and you cant get seige machines in early game cuz it will effect your Resources ( building a siege factory etc..)
and you wont be able to get much infantry and ofc Isengard's archers can get on the walls so no it wont be weak against early rush ,everybody knows Isengard is weak in early game this suggestion will fix this problem .

everyone please focus with me , the balance problem can be fixed (if it even existed)
Edain Team can change the numbers , for example: puting low health points for the walls , or high health points . there is so many ways , i dont see the balance problem is enough reason to disagree this idea .

[Odysseus]

Then I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about, my friend . Isengard does not need walls. Bloating the design by adding walls will just make all the other factions suffer. You have Saruman to defend your base, and he should be enough. Isengard needs a weakness, and defending their base is one of the few weaknesses they have. If you play Isengard the way you should, you wouldn't need to defend your base in the first place. Dunlendings and Wulfgar can pressure your opponent greatly, buying you enough time to transition into Uruk-hai and your heroes. You'll be in the offense, almost all the time.

I apologise for sounding so harsh, but it is frustrating for me to see that people who have barely played the mod with pvp balance in mind, are talking about balance. In fact, you could just watch replays and already see that Isengard does not need walls at all.
Isengard already has walls...in the Isengard map with Orthanc. Can we please bring a close to this subject?

[Walküre]

everyone please focus with me , the balance problem can be fixed (if it even existed)
Edain Team can change the numbers , for example: puting low health points for the walls , or high health points . there is so many ways , i dont see the balance problem is enough reason to disagree this idea .

We are well focused on it too, don't worry 

The argument 'the Edain Team could change everything and do anything' is not really something reasonable, in my opinion, nor does it concretely add further elements to your proposal.
As you may know, everything is intertwined, especially if we talk about balance; if just the modification of some values causes consequent changes involving all the other factions, you can imagine that a gameplay switch of the kind you are now suggesting might definitely disrupt and alter completely the general gameplay equilibrium of the Edain Mod.

As I and other people previously wrote, it's not about creativity and how many things the Edain Team can virtually add, it's, on the other hand, taking into consideration that mentioned harmony.
Something that you lack a bit, I would say.

Also, a user wrote something really interesting on ModDB, regarding a lore point related to your proposal, that I would like to expand a bit.
The 'new' Isengard of the War of the Ring, twisted and corrupted, was completely focused on spreading its might and violence across the whole Rohan as fast as it was able to (we can thus understand why the Uruk-hai were precisely designed to be fast and walk both during the day and the night), achieving in very little time the control of the surrounding lands, which had been abruptly and violently occupied.
I think you are concerned mainly and mostly about Orthanc itself, the ancient Númenórean fortress/outpost, while avoiding a bit the 'true' and natural characteristic of Isengard as a whole faction.

There is a reason why Isengard is an evil faction and has a specific gameplay (certainly not totally aimed to defence), a founding theme that goes also back to the very roots of BFME1.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Then I'm afraid you have no idea what you are talking about, my friend . Isengard does not need walls. Bloating the design by adding walls will just make all the other factions suffer. You have Saruman to defend your base, and he should be enough. Isengard needs a weakness, and defending their base is one of the few weaknesses they have. If you play Isengard the way you should, you wouldn't need to defend your base in the first place. Dunlendings and Wulfgar can pressure your opponent greatly, buying you enough time to transition into Uruk-hai and your heroes. You'll be in the offense, almost all the time.

I apologise for sounding so harsh, but it is frustrating for me to see that people who have barely played the mod with pvp balance in mind, are talking about balance. In fact, you could just watch replays and already see that Isengard does not need walls at all.
Isengard already has walls...in the Isengard map with Orthanc. Can we please bring a close to this subject?

if you are going to apologise then dont speak harshly at the first place , i am not always in a good mood to say "its okay", and who said I have barely played the mod ? , i never said Isengard NEEDS walls , i said we can replace the little towers with walls and balance it to be the same effect , while its true Isengard is very good and i have won tons of battles online using isengard , i have noticed that you cant get pikemen in early game if your enemy starts with horses or dwarfs wagons.. you are done .

We are well focused on it too, don't worry 

The argument 'the Edain Team could change everything and do anything' is not really something reasonable, in my opinion, nor does it concretely add further elements to your proposal.
As you may know, everything is intertwined, especially if we talk about balance; if just the modification of some values causes consequent changes involving all the other factions, you can imagine that a gameplay switch of the kind you are now suggesting might definitely disrupt and alter completely the general gameplay equilibrium of the Edain Mod.

As I and other people previously wrote, it's not about creativity and how many things the Edain Team can virtually add, it's, on the other hand, taking into consideration that mentioned harmony.
Something that you lack a bit, I would say.

Also, a user wrote something really interesting on ModDB, regarding a lore point related to your proposal, that I would like to expand a bit.
The 'new' Isengard of the War of the Ring, twisted and corrupted, was completely focused on spreading its might and violence across the whole Rohan as fast as it was able to (we can thus understand why the Uruk-hai were precisely designed to be fast and walk both during the day and the night), achieving in very little time the control of the surrounding lands, which had been abruptly and violently occupied.
I think you are concerned mainly and mostly about Orthanc itself, the ancient Númenórean fortress/outpost, while avoiding a bit the 'true' and natural characteristic of Isengard as a whole faction.

There is a reason why Isengard is an evil faction and has a specific gameplay (certainly not totally aimed to defence), a founding theme that goes also back to the very roots of BFME1.

actually only the walls health points needs to be changed but your second point is right , this idea will destroy the natural characteristic of Isengard as a whole faction ,i was focusing on Orthanc and forgot that the walls will not fit in such a dominating Faction as Isengard , thank you for making me remember , but I still want it to be more unique there must be a way , i mean this base need some changes like for the love of god why there is dead trees in it , if there is a place in entire Middle-Earth that trees dont exist in  that place must be Isengard's bases , and the color of the the land is very similer to Mordor's one , I think they just need to remove the trees (note: the same dead trees are in Mordor's Base as well ) and change the land's color to the one I used in my video for the new base (the same one in Isengard map), and put the white lines , this way it will looks just beautiful  and more different from Mordor and ofc it will not effect the balance becouse its just a recolor for the ground and removing dead trees ,wait...  i will do a video for it

[Odysseus]

Well, if that is all it takes, then I will concede some ground .

[Walküre]

I don't think that Odysseus wanted to sound or sounded indeed harsh, and it's obviously true that everyone is entitled to express its own opinions within the boundaries of the forum's rules.

Just, I think he was trying to make you understand that there are also balance aspects that are quite consolidated and shared by many people, who are very interested in balance itself and, in Odysseus' case, are concerned more than other ones about it being Beta or Balance Testers on their own; not to mention the experience regarding Multiplayer games (because this is the 'dimension' which balance primarily refers to).


Witch-king of Angmar, I honestly tell you that I was a bit doubtful whether closing or not this thread, because, trust me, your initial proposal about walls had all the premises that a proposal should have to be locked; and I and other people already and accurately explained you (point to point) what were the prominent problematic aspects.

Nevertheless, since, as I see, you seem to have made up your mind and opted for another type of proposal, I think I could legitimately keep this thread open; and, maybe with some formal modifications regarding the topic, I could widen its core matter in order to be related to possible aesthetic changes for Isengard's castle/camp, shaping the current topic in a more general one and attracting further new contributions and ideas 

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

i am not here to make enemys , i hope we dont go through this again Odysseus

thank you DieWalküre i will Appreciate it .

back to the thread :

i found thats its better get photos instead of a video its better in explaining

first lets see the stuff that (in my opinion) need to change :

1- the trees in the base:







2-the similer color of the grounds in Isengard's and Mordor's bases:





now the idea :

1- no trees:



2- the ground color and white lines from Isengard(Orthanc Map):



3- the upgrades of the base arent around the tower insted there is Construction equipment around the buildings like Waterwheel or ledders etc...)







note: i dont want orthanc tower in the base but i was in a hurry and the same thing goes for the little walls , i prefer the edain's ones

please tell me your opinion .

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, certainly this isn't an urgent subject that needs change and I agree that Isengard doesn't really need walls, but considering this latest suggestion: Why not?
I do indeed agree that Mordor's and Isengard's bases look very similar, while this isn't a big problem in my opinion (as the "texture" of both areas does look fairly similar in the movies), ideas like the white lines look pretty nice. I'm generally neutral on the matter of trees, certainly the aren't really fitting a fully industrialized base, but they may refer to the tainting of Isengard, so I'm not so certain about those.
Spreading the fortress upgrades around the castle is also a neat idea, this would make Saruman's headquarters even more crowded as they are described in the books (something I really missed graphically from Edain 3.8.1 where Isengard was visually the most industrialized faction).
Therefore, all things considered I like your latest suggestion.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Well, certainly this isn't an urgent subject that needs change and I agree that Isengard doesn't really need walls, but considering this latest suggestion: Why not?
I do indeed agree that Mordor's and Isengard's bases look very similar, while this isn't a big problem in my opinion (as the "texture" of both areas does look fairly similar in the movies), ideas like the white lines look pretty nice. I'm generally neutral on the matter of trees, certainly the aren't really fitting a fully industrialized base, but they may refer to the tainting of Isengard, so I'm not so certain about those.
Spreading the fortress upgrades around the castle is also a neat idea, this would make Saruman's headquarters even more crowded as they are described in the books (something I really missed graphically from Edain 3.8.1 where Isengard was visually the most industrialized faction).
Therefore, all things considered I like your latest suggestion.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

thank you Melkor Bauglir , I am so glad you like it

edit: you know the first thing Saurman and the orcs did in Isengard was cuting ALL the trees , and this is the best industrial faction in all Middle-Earth we are talking about , there is no way "dead trees" can fit in it

[Walküre]

I agree with Melkor 
The latest idea sounds definitely a lot more reasonable and interesting.

I'm too for an improvement of the industrialised element of Isengard; furthermore, I really like those white (steel?) paths that lead to the citadel as well.

Yes, it was a good idea changing the topic of the thread a bit 

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

I agree with Melkor 
The latest idea sounds definitely a lot more reasonable and interesting.

I'm too for an improvement of the industrialised element of Isengard; furthermore, I really like those white (steel?) paths that lead to the citadel as well.

Yes, it was a good idea changing the topic of the thread a bit 

thank you so much , this is the first time i get some people to like my idea in modding-union , i feel weird lol
btw I am not actually sure if the white paths are from steel or not but i Like them alot

[Walküre]

You will discover that it's much better discussing with other people and finding well-thought 'compromises' than achieving immediate success with the first attempt.
Of course, coming suddenly out with a suitable idea is always great, but definitely less plausible 

Steel is probably the artificial element by definition, and one of the symbols of Industry itself, something that thoroughly opposes the natural and 'bucolic' view of Tolkien.
At least, how the World should be to be good.

[Odysseus]

While I agree that the patches soil of the bases look quite similar, there is a good reason for that. Tainted and defiled land look exactly like that. Both Isengard's and Mordor's soil looks like that because it is/was tainted and defiled. Grey and lifeless.
Remember people, changing for the sake of changing is never a good way to design a mod; I speak from experience. Thankfully, ET knows this quite well, so I am glad. Furthermore, I presume Orthanc's texture is more detailed than the default tainted land, meaning that it will strain performance for minimal visual gain.
With that said, I have no major objections. If the pros outweigh the cons, and ET agrees with it, I have no qualms and I will accept it.

i am not here to make enemys , i hope we dont go through this again Odysseus

Not sharing opinions does not imply immediately that we should be enemies. Nay, not at all . That is what discussing and debating is all about. Sharing opinions, backed up by either evidence or your own reasoning and preferably both, is imperative if you wish to convince others of your proposition. Sharing different opinions is a common thing, and I am not your enemy.
In fact, I do hope we go through this again, because coming together and debating certain matters, makes the mind strong. Also, if we manage to find a consensus, it brings us together on better terms. It will also motivate you more to come up with improved proposals each time.
Sorry for being so dull, but you remind me of >me<, when I was on my first forum for Company of Heroes. I was always proposing things left and right, mostly visual changes that I thought would serve as improvements. They kept being shot down, one after another. I wanted to give up hope that my contributions were irrelevant and not needed. However, instead of being too proud and stubborn and giving up hope, I decided to spend more time on the forum, and listen to the reasoning of the devs, the balancers, the moderators, the beta testers and other contributors with experience, and see what kind of discussion they led.
Moreover, I spend more time with the actual design of the game:'' Why is this here? What does it do? Does it add up? Does it hold up?''
Then, taking all these thoughts and observations into considerations, I spend as much time as I could on my next proposal, crafting it, perfecting it, and then it was finished. I made that proposal and it let to a debate of 37 pages full of heated debate. In the end, my change came through and it was liked by a good majority. The feeling of hard work paying off and the feeling of acceptance was quite overwhelming to be honest. I told myself, I am content for now and I will see if I can come up with even better arguments for my next proposal! Ohhh, it gets me all nostalgic thinking about to those past days.

*Ahem*, my bad for talking so much. I will hold my tongue now, but I hope you will understand that I am not your enemy, and that I WANT to debate with you. It will shape you, mold you, improve you and it will make you a veteran proposer in no time.

Kind regards.

[Walküre]

*Ahem*, my bad for talking so much. I will hold my tongue now, but I hope you will understand that I am not your enemy, and that I WANT to debate with you. It will shape you, mold you, improve you and it will make you a veteran proposer in no time.

Kind regards.

Last post about this matter.
I completely agree with Odysseus, and it was very interesting indeed reading about his experience in other forums.

Without ending up with a too long comment and too much details, I can say that my experience was more or less similar; its most significant aspects, at least.
And, I would say that the majority of the people of this Community must have too had this kind of approach.
I didn't arrive at all in this forum as a suddenly perfect and moderator-like user, nor, if I can recall correctly, have I ever had a big 'success' in exposing perfectly conceived proposals since the very beginning of debates.

I can now say that it really was the very attendance of threads and discussions with the great people of this Community that concretely helped me develop and 'grow' as a user; if you, Witch-king of Angmar, look at the most visited threads of the English Community, you will exactly see that everything often started with a rough idea that was accurately and meaningfully polished by people's consistent interactions.

Odysseus used a significant word: shaping.
Yes, this forum and the whole Edain Community will truly and positively shape you and your own qualities as a user, as long as you are willing to participate, receive and give advices, and help in the livening of this vital forum 

[Ealendril der Dunkle]

It's not that easy to change the ground texture. After all its a model with a very professionel uvw map. The texture needs a size around 512x512 and will be folded in the uvw of  the model. In your example you've invited some textures from the wordlbuilder, everything of them has a size around 256x256 and are freely placed inside of the castle. Sadly, it's not that simple.
There is an enormous amount of work needed to create such a ground model. Currently no one from the team finds the time for such a thing. We will think about improving the castle, but currently there exists no priority.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Thank you so much Ealendril , I understand it needs alot of work , there is no need to hurry , take your time guys , even if it been added in 4.4 patch or 4.5 patch , I am sure it will be a stunning masterpiece when you do it