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Autor Thema: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills  (Gelesen 10613 mal)

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Hello my dear Edainers!
After a burst of good thoughts, and the pretty supportive feedback from some members of the community I decided to create a fully pledged article to represent my suggestion. For those who don’t know about it, some weeks ago I talked about an idea I had for a new hero for the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. (NOTE: Get ready for a long post, hope you will make it through the end of it fellow reader  :) ).
As we all know, right now the faction has only four heroes, Dain, Thorin, Murin and Drar. The biggest problem concerning the creation of a fifth hero is the lack of proper source material. No other notable dwarves are mentioned as far as Iron Hills are concerned both in the novels but also from non-canon sources. Thus I came up with a solution, a unique hero distinguishable from the others which can fill out the missing spot for the beloved sub faction while adding more diversity to the mod in general.
So the idea is to add an exclusive type of unit , a chariot hero! Inspired by the war machines used in the extended edition of The Battle of the five armies this new addition will serve as an “updated” version of the current battle wagons used by the dwarves right from the vanilla game. Lets be a little bit more specific
a)   Concerning the name :
The great thing about the chariot hero is the fact that it doesn’t require a certain name of a character. The chariot will be manned by a specialized crew of some unnamed, yet courageous dwarves. In order to distinguish it from the countless siege machines used by the various factions of the game a nickname could be given to it. Things like “The Crasher”, “The Hammer/Spear of Durin”, “The Mountain/Erebor Reclaimer” sound pretty good to me, and are a great way to express the dwarven love of warfare and machinery.

b)   The Role:
Its seems that a chariot can only be used as a mass-slaying weapon, able to tear the various enemies of the dwarves with a combination of excellent craftsmanship and tactics along with brutality and viciousness . After giving it some thought I also decided to add a little bit of unit-support skills in the design, mainly because of how important for such kind of weapon to be presented upon the battlefield (more on that later). Still its main role will remain the destruction of the enemy units, a thing which may create some problems with the current situation concerning the faction. Murin seems to have the mass-slayer role right now, and its probably a thing that will not change with the upcoming version of the mod.

c)   The Abilities/ Mechanics

So this is where thing turn a little bit more complicated. I thought about this section a lot and I tried to understand the mechanics currently used by the battle wagons in the game. Unfortunately it seems that the options are pretty limited. Yet I tried to do my best to give an interesting and unique suggestion. A chariot hero should not be able to earn levels and experience like the other heroes (mainly because it doesn’t serve a thematic role but also because of the very easy way to earn experience with a wagon in the game while massively killing infantry). Instead I suggest an upgrade system close to the one Billy Ferny uses (Isengard)  along with Gorthaur’s transformation system but with some twists.
The chariot will be recruited at level 1 and can only achieve levels by buying upgrades for it. Each upgrade represent a different way of using it, similar to a stance/function system. The player will be able to pick from 3 different upgrades with scaling prices and will be able to unlock a fourth upgrade if the other three are unlocked. The first three upgrades will be the following :
1)   Spears
2)   Repeating Crossbows
3)   Wheel blades

Each upgrade will unlock an active ability for the player to use which shares a cooldown with the other three, making the decisions pretty meaningful according to the situation
The “Spears Upgrade” will equip the crew with the weapon in order to fight against most types of the enemy army. If this “stance” is active the chariot will have medium speed and acceleration decrease while dealing extra damage to cavalry and monster units. The armor will also be increased slightly against spears (which is the main way to counter this unit)  in order to keep the machine in one piece in case it gets surrounded. The bad thing is the increased damage from infantry.
Using the “Repeating crossbows” makes things a bit more different. In order to aim, the chariot will have decreased move speed in exchange for ranged damage which also pierces armor. It will be an effective way to kite the enemy, hit the heavier units harder and most importantly to counter the enemy pikes while keeping a distance from them. The weapon itself cant be an exact copy of the one used in the films. Instead I would go with a smaller design close to the ones used in the later medieval times (coming back to this later)
Activating the “Wheel” blades (like the ones in the movie) means that the chariot is prepared to dive into the fray of battle with almost top speed. The crew will remain inactive because of the increased speed and the wheels will damage many more enemies (effectively increasing the chariots hitbox) without losing much acceleration. The downside is the  massively decreased armor especially against spears and monsters. Kinda like a “glass cannon situation”.
So, choosing a stance will depend on the situation and the enemy’s army. Against an infantry consisted force the player will decided to use the wheel blades to deal with it. Repeating crossbows are best used against armored enemies or when the enemy has a lot of pikes forcing you to keep your distance. Finally the spears should be used against forces of cavalry or monsters and in most general situation when you will not be able to micro-manage the chariot for a long time (due to the increased armor).
The last and final update will not be stance but will unlock an activated power which has a separate longer cooldown. The name I propose for the ability is “Khazad Ai Menu!”. Using it will give a an attack and speed buff to your soldiers which stand close enough to the chariot and will also give the chariot invulnerability (or a massive armor increase) while decreasing the acceleration decrease to almost zero. To make things simpler, the final upgrade ability is an epic chariot charge for a few seconds which also inspires your army.
The whole concept can be described as a high risk/high reward system. In order for the chariot to function in the best way possible the player must give proper attention to it by changing its position and stances according to the situation.


d)   The design
This is the section which the team will mostly decide what to do mostly because of the engines limitations. I hope that the chariot will be possibly pulled by 4 rams (even two can make a difference) to make it look more unique compared to the battle wagons. It would also be great if the machine itself can be broadened, to make it look bigger. As far as the crossbows are concerned I believe a handheld model used by two of the crew (one of each side) will be something possible without requiring new animations (only a new “heavier” model) which will fire faster than the other crossbows already in the game. I drew a sketch with a design inspired both by the movie (and the concept art) along with current design of the wagons. Plus an extra sketch for the crossbows.


Closing thoughts:
(NOTE: Glad to see you making it up to here fellow reader  !) The suggestions still requires improvements mainly because of my lack of knowledge for the tools the team may have to create this. Still I hope I gave you a pretty detailed view of my idea and I also hope you like it. Please don’t forget to give some much needed feedback (both positive and negative) in order for the suggestion to become better. Have a wonderful day

The_ClocheFixer

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #1 am: 3. Feb 2016, 20:19 »
As i've said on moddb this is an awesome idea! And your ideas have made it only better in my opinion :)

IMO its one of the only ways to add an extra hero to the Ironhills faction....
I just can't find any negative feedback in my mind :)
A lady is never just NEVER to pretty for METAL!

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #2 am: 3. Feb 2016, 20:22 »
At first I was a bit sceptical about this idea (as I usually am), but it turned out that I quite like it (as it usually does). The abilities seem interesting and detailed and most importantly; requiring some prior thoughts, exactly what Edain Team and their fans like :)

So yeah, I do like your suggestion and I look forward to see how the idea will evolve :)

P.S. For the upgrade Repeating Crossbows, I think a better name would be something like Automatic Crossbows?

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #3 am: 3. Feb 2016, 20:36 »

I really don't think it is the only way to add a Hero for IHs! :-)
Especially another completely non canon Hero will be too much in my opinion and even more in a Faction in which 2 of 4 are already non canon Heroes! :-)

About the idea ,I think IHs already has enough"Cavalry" Type Units with the Ram Scouts and Dain on his Boar,another " Cavalry" Unit/Hero will make IHs really too Fast and  Cavalry reliable for a Dwarven Faction!

But this is just my opinion on the matter ! :-)

And the more proper name is Semi-Automatic Crossbow! :-)
Greetings!
« Letzte Änderung: 3. Feb 2016, 20:44 von LordDainIronfoot »
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #4 am: 3. Feb 2016, 20:54 »
P.S. For the upgrade Repeating Crossbows, I think a better name would be something like Automatic Crossbows?

No, I'm wrong, repeating crossbow actually is a thing; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repeating_crossbow

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #5 am: 3. Feb 2016, 20:55 »
I know about the Repeating Crossbow being a real therm and that the Chinese made it,as a warfare fan I am familiar with most,and all,I just thing the Semi-Automatic Crossbow is more appropriate talking into consideration the way of firing and reloading and yhe design like whole!
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #6 am: 3. Feb 2016, 21:11 »
1. Ugh, sorry, I messed up the replying system... This is supposed to go together with my comment with the link... And that one wasn't for you, sorry again, this one is:

Well, I compared the crossbows from the movie to semi-automatic weapons like shotguns or pistols first and I did think they really were semi-automatic, but they were seen firing bolts continuously while the trigger (handle?) was pulled (spinned), unlike semi-automatic weapons which have to be triggered for each shot.

Canis carcharothias

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #7 am: 3. Feb 2016, 21:39 »
I would say that "automatic" and "semi-automatic" are terms used for firearms. We shoud stick to "repeating crossbow".

But, whatever, congratulations for the post, I love how you went so much into detail, and damn it, you even draw a sketch  xD. And about the abilities, I really like the shared cooldown, it forces you to make a choice, and goes well with the high risk/high cost gameplay you wrote about. I would, also, make this hero quite expensive to maximize that effect. So player's won't be launching mindlessly that beast of a war machine into battle.

Very nice proposal, it just need some balance tweaking and it will be awesome.

WarOfTheRingVeteran

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #8 am: 3. Feb 2016, 22:25 »
I would say that "automatic" and "semi-automatic" are terms used for firearms. We shoud stick to "repeating crossbow".

Yes, that's certainly right :)

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #9 am: 4. Feb 2016, 11:32 »
About the idea ,I think IHs already has enough"Cavalry" Type Units with the Ram Scouts and Dain on his Boar,another " Cavalry" Unit/Hero will make IHs really too Fast and  Cavalry reliable for a Dwarven Faction!

In my opinion its is all about the choice of the player. He can decide if he wants a more aggresive strategy and invest a good amount of resources for the chariot or just keep things simpler and rely more on his foot soldiers. Just like the ram riders (which require both the recruitment of a hero and an extra upgrade) the player can decide if he will use them in his/her strategy or not. Plus it gives the sub faction an increased unique feeling, that of a versatile army able to defend and be aggresive at a moments notice (just like in the movies) and most importantly a much more extented range of choices as  far as the the hero factor is concerned (a section in which they are currently in a disadvantage compared to the other two dwarven realms)

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #10 am: 4. Feb 2016, 12:27 »
Well ,adding more Speed and "Cavalry" to a Faction which already has Ram Cavalry(limited because Dwarves are not so natural riders and Cavalry using Faction) and Strong Hero on Boar plus Battlewagons by default will kinda ruin the Balance in my eyes and it will make IHs like Dwarven Rohan!

Another thing is that I really can't view this as Hero but more like a Single Unit Battlewagon with Movie based Model with few Soldiers on it! :-)

Also King Dain in Erebor has the Ability to Summon a Battlewagon which can be mounted by Hero which is basically the same and this will take away the uniqueness of that Ability! :-)

Also making it "glass canon" is not what a "Hero" should be,and with all those Upgrades as I said it will be like Single Unit rather than a Hero!Also what Hero Role will it fulfill!? A Unit Supporter,Hero Killer,Hero Supporter and etc. !? :-)

And as I have said there is something more lore friendly which is possible for IHs Hero! :-)

I don't want to be rude or disrespectful,this is just my humble opinion about this and of course no one is forced to share it! :-)
« Letzte Änderung: 4. Feb 2016, 12:34 von LordDainIronfoot »
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

FilipMakedonski

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #11 am: 4. Feb 2016, 12:38 »
I personally like the concept and the idea for this, also as i said on ModDB you have my full support :D
This is for the record: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/O39Bk
Have a nice day :)))

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #12 am: 4. Feb 2016, 13:11 »
Well ,adding more Speed and "Cavalry" to a Faction which already has Ram Cavalry(limited because Dwarves are not so natural riders and Cavalry using Faction) and Strong Hero on Boar plus Battlewagons by default will kinda ruin the Balance in my eyes and it will make IHs like Dwarven Rohan!

Another thing is that I really can't view this as Hero but more like a Single Unit Battlewagon with Movie based Model with few Soldiers on it! :-)

Also King Dain in Erebor has the Ability to Summon a Battlewagon which can be mounted by Hero which is basically the same and this will take away the uniqueness of that Ability! :-)

Also making it "glass canon" is not what a "Hero" should be,and with all those Upgrades as I said it will be like Single Unit rather than a Hero!Also what Hero Role will it fulfill!? A Unit Supporter,Hero Killer,Hero Supporter and etc. !? :-)

And as I have said there is something more lore friendly which is possible for IHs Hero! :-)

I don't want to be rude or disrespectful,this is just my humble opinion about this and of course no one is forced to share it! :-)
First of all you are neither rude or disrespectful. I really appreciate the fact that you expressing your opinion on the matter while being extremely kind. I would try to answer to some of your comments. I have some fears in my mind in terms of gameplay balance too, because the re-disgned iron hills will be far more reliant on heavy defensive troops and less on speed or attack. Still they require an extra hero which can serve a definite role while remaining unique compared to the others. As i mentioned in  my thread the chariot will serve the role of  a mass slayer with a little bit of unit support (the final upgrade/ability). Im aware of King Dain's of Erebor battle wagon summon yet i dont see any similarities with my concept (apart from both of them obviously being chariots) because this ability is used to transfer your heroes to the frontline but its unavaible to charge to the enemy lines (because it is so easily destroyed). The whole "glass-cannon" idea defines one of the function the chariot will have while using the "wheel blades" (which can decimate the enemy's infatry on very high speeds but will be destroyed in seconds agaiinst spears of monsters). Finaly there may be possibly some more lore friendly ideas for a new IH hero ( i have already read your idea on the matter and i like it) but still there are many limitations on that matter which may force things to go a little bit away from the books.

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #13 am: 4. Feb 2016, 13:14 »

This is for the record: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/O39Bk

Gotta admit that this particular design was part of the inspiration for my drawing  :)

FilipMakedonski

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #14 am: 4. Feb 2016, 13:15 »
Still in my opinion I prefer some nasty, angry and bloodsucking boar to pull the war chariot :D

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #15 am: 4. Feb 2016, 13:27 »
Still in my opinion I prefer some nasty, angry and bloodsucking boar to pull the war chariot :D
I considered adding boars instead of rams, but i thought it could be a little too much. Still i may change my opinion  :)
I forgot to thank everyone for the feedback up till now ! I would gladly hear any kind of ideas you may have for the concept. If you really like it , it would be thankful to spread the word (without spamming you nasty hobbitses  xD)

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #16 am: 4. Feb 2016, 13:48 »
Now that Chariot Concept was used for the Battlewagon Improvements Thread about King Dain II Unique IHs Based Summon ! :-)

Another thing is that this Chariot Hero kinda represents like Combined ideas we all devised about the War Chariots Changes and if this is used for a Hero it will almost take the Chance for War Chariots getting in Game! :-)

I am sorry but I prefer and support the "Narin" idea since it is more lore friendly ! :-)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #17 am: 4. Feb 2016, 14:05 »
@LordDainIronfoot

I have to say, your idea about the revised war chariots was the first spark of inspiration for my concept. I fully support this certain suggestion and i had it in mind while i created my own. Hope that our concepts dont collide (i also hope it is obvious i didnt copy your idea,  the similarities are present because we were both based on the same source material, one way or another). We may actualy find a solution to implement both (i'm open to suggestions and i hope that my concept will be able to evovle according to them)! Although it all depends on the team, i hope we can make it happen in some way.
Plus i find no reason not to include two all new heroes for the Iron Hills (including Narin)  :)

Walküre

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #18 am: 4. Feb 2016, 14:09 »
I'm a bit 'divided' regarding this proposal.
I generally like it, and it interests me very much, as any other innovative improvement often does; and, I recognise that this proposal was indeed presented very well.
So, let's say that my moderating side appreciates the form of the idea itself, and the matters involved  ;)

Nevertheless, I personally prefer the previous proposals about Narin and the significant conceptual improvements about the war chariots, also because I got myself involved in them a bit.

As Dáin wrote, I believe that Narin is more lore accurate on a general perspective.
And, the possibility of a renewal of the 'chariot theme' in the Edain Mod could be easily solved by the above-mentioned monumental suggestion of Dáin and CragLord concerning the battle wagons, which was eventually proven to have been thoroughly appreciated by the Edain Community (more than 60 positive votes, if I recall correctly).

However, it's indeed an innovative and fresh proposal, after all.
Good luck with it  :)

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #19 am: 4. Feb 2016, 17:45 »
@ DieWalküre
The battle wagon re-design definetely is something that should happen.  i will possibly try to make my idea applicable in case this becomes  official. In my opinion if both the ideas are welcome by the community and the team, there will be a way to implement them at the same time, there is no reason for the one to deny the inclusion of the other.
Glad to hear you find it innovative and fresh by the way and thanks for the feedback ;)

Walküre

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #20 am: 4. Feb 2016, 18:17 »
Of course, one proposal doesn't necessarily deny the other, in theory.
But, I tried to watch the whole ensemble taking into consideration both the 'need' of new improvements for the war chariots and of a new conceptual hero; as if the two proposals were intertwined with each other.

So, I believe that a new chariot hero combined with new improvements for the chariots themselves could end up being an 'excessive' focus on that chariot theme I referred to previously, thus preventing us from having another new innovative concept for a hero beside chariots; while, the previous two proposals might really bring to the faction of the Iron Hills two different new aspects, each belonging to different fields, and resulting in a more evident diversity.

I see your idea as something in between (focus on chariots and the need of a hero), which doesn't completely convince me.
I don't really have anything in particular against it; it's just that I'm not 100% sure about it for the exposed reasons.
Not to mention that I think that the previous two proposals are already justly balanced and well-conceived due to the considerable efforts poured into them (achieved by a constant work on polishing them).

Obviously, as you wrote, everything will be up to the Edain Team's will.
And, it's not so implausible that we may be likely to find a reasonable compromise (often unexpected) between two or more sides during the natural development and continuation of the debate.
This is what usually and rightly happens here, leading many times to greater outcomes than the ones initially planned  :)
« Letzte Änderung: 6. Feb 2016, 12:03 von DieWalküre »

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #21 am: 4. Feb 2016, 19:02 »
Well you guys really have some points which i will consider. Always glad to hear your detailed opinion  :)

Saeros

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #22 am: 5. Feb 2016, 13:01 »
Something that I couldn't understand: by adding the chariot hero the ram riders will be removed or not? Because this addition will alter a lot in the way the Iron Hills will function.


By reading all the thread (+ the replies), I came up with an idea.
Instead of making this chariot hero, why not make your concept a great unit that requires a lvl 3 forge works and a limit of 3 or 5 of them in the battlefield?
Since the community asks for a better chariot unit for the dwarves etc?
Though I have to admit I liked your idea and I would love to see it make it in the mod, the opinion of lorddain was something that I had to agree with...
So I guess with my suggestion your concept could work a little better, but not only for the Iron Hills but for all the subfactions of the dwarves

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #23 am: 5. Feb 2016, 14:15 »
@Saeros
I never mentioned the removal of the ram riders. They should remain the same.
Making a new "elite chariot unit" for all the dwarven factions is not the best idea in my opinion because it doesnt solve the main problem which is the lack of heroes (and therefore choices and tactics) for the sub faction of the Iron Hills. Plus the creation of a more advanced chariot unit (even with limited recruitment) means that there will be no use for the current battle wagons. Still i dont find the inclusion of both the update of the current battle wagons and the more elite chariot hero for th IH (exclusively) to be "too-much" .

Saeros

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #24 am: 6. Feb 2016, 11:50 »
@ Eöl.the.Dark.Elf it's just that with what you suggest the Iron Hills will have an extra hero (which is not a scout hero, but a mass slayer, a second one in the faction) that's why I questioned the removal of the ram riders, I think that the new hero of the Iron Hills should be something like a scout..
I don't know, this thing has got me mixed up so I have to stand back and just follow this thread to see where your idea will lead the community.
Just so you know, you have my support in the inclusion of your battle wagon (either a hero or an upgraded version)

Eöl.the.Dark.Elf.

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Re: Suggestion for a new Chariot Hero for the Iron Hills
« Antwort #25 am: 6. Feb 2016, 17:16 »
@Saeros
Well the fact that the chariot plays the role of a second mass slayer hero is the main problem with my idea. Im waiting to see what the team will do with Murin (who in my opinion is extremely underwhelming right now), and i will propably change some things about my suggestion.
Anyway, i appreciate your support  :)