Mordor concept (New)

[Fredius]

Just to clear it up to the Germans here, as far as I know in English one says Misty Mountains as MM, however for Minas Morgul we just simply say Morgul.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

so basically edain team are using movies's designs but they stick to the books thats why Azog lost his name and his army , i think this is a wrong treatment to Azog but I think I will just wait for MM to come out , so I can see how the team think MM should be...

[Gnomi]

Well, I have also seen MM for Minas Morgul quite often in english forums.


And no, this is no wrong treatment for Azog. Azog is dead and we let the dead stay in piece and don't force them to continue their work, as some other guys do. We just give them their well deserved peace and retirement.^^

Also the troups are Dol Guldur troups in the movies - and Azog in the movie wasn't the boss of Dol Guldur, so it wasn't really Azog's army, but Sauron's army, which he gave to Azog.

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

And no, this is no wrong treatment for Azog. Azog is dead and we let the dead stay in piece and don't force them to continue their work, as some other guys do. We just give them their well deserved peace and retirement.^^

Also the troups are Dol Guldur troups in the movies - and Azog in the movie wasn't the boss of Dol Guldur, so it wasn't really Azog's army, but Sauron's army, which he gave to Azog.

i am talking about movie's Azog not the book one, the one in the book is dead and his design really sucks so i am really happy you left him , btw Sauron is the Leader of all Evil in the Third Age so i dont see this as a reason but as i said i will wait for your work guys .

[Azog The Defiler]

Azog was a great orc leader in the books, and even much greater in the movies. But because hes dead at this time, hes not included, but his movie design is. Im totally fine with this and made peace with it a while ago..

But this fact gives his movie design many opportunities without interfering with the lore.

I think The Defiler should stay the way he is now, as in the first two movie he was the main antagonist and fits the hero killer role perfectly.
His battle armor on the otherhand is unused, so i strongly suggest you read the concept again to see what i mean. Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.

Well, following Edain's concepts, the Defiler is just a warg-leader of Gundabad and in no way a general of DG -there isn't even a connection at all. And since he lived during the Hobbit, there is no way he is still around during the WotR where Mordor is mainly set.
Also, I'd like to mention one point: Up to today, there are exactly two heroes outside of summons available for multiple factions -the Witchking and Gandalf. I think, I don't even have to mention how the Defiler looks compared to them, there is no single way he is close to being important, interesting or even lore-friedly enough to include him as a recruitable hero in multiple factions. --> Apart from that, even if we did so, it wouldn't make any sense at all because of the reasons above.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[The Witch-King of Angmar]

Giving it to a new leaderhero for Mordor, so you can have a worthy leader of the Dol Guldur orcs.

Well, following Edain's concepts, the Defiler is just a warg-leader of Gundabad and in no way a general of DG -there isn't even a connection at all. And since he lived during the Hobbit, there is no way he is still around during the WotR where Mordor is mainly set.
Also, I'd like to mention one point: Up to today, there are exactly two heroes outside of summons available for multiple factions -the Witchking and Gandalf. I think, I don't even have to mention how the Defiler looks compared to them, there is no single way he is close to being important, interesting or even lore-friedly enough to include him as a recruitable hero in multiple factions. --> Apart from that, even if we did so, it wouldn't make any sense at all because of the reasons above.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

dude , he said "a new leaderhero" means not azog or the defiler just a normal orc captain with movie's azog's armor and a helmet .

[Fredius]

Officially the leader of Dol Guldur was Khamul, after that the Necromancer left the fortress. And really the last thing Mordor needs is another hero .

[Melkor Bauglir]

Firstly:

Officially the leader of Dol Guldur was Khamul, after that the Necromancer left the fortress. And really the last thing Mordor needs is another hero .

I couldn't agree more.

Secondly:

he said "a new leaderhero" means not azog or the defiler just a normal orc captain with movie's azog's armor and a helmet

Wait, what? Adding even another non-existing hero just for the sake of having someone, everyone will remember as plain Hobbit-Azog, in the game? Considering Fredius' point and common sense as no one needs this gameplaywise -what for? If this was truely meant that way, then (being wholeheartedly honest) this is one of the worst ideas I've seen in a while. Apart from that, my points still hold. Sorry, if this sounds rude (it probably will ).


Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Azog The Defiler]

Well you guys clearly didnt read the new concept..
And a little rude, but honest, the way it should be:)

But as stated in the concept the leader hero is a replacement for Gothmog. Not a new hero for gameplay, as you choose in the beginning if you want a Morgul themed faction or Dol Guldur themed. And as stated several time, he is not Azog, nor the Defiler from MM. So "Azog" is not in two different factions.
And the great thing about nameless heroes, is that they arent non canon. I mean there probably was some orc leader in Dol Guldur, yould be suprised how many leaders it takes to control an army for real.
The same way the Witch King is leader of Morgul and Gothmog is his General, it would be like with this guy and Khamul. Since neither Khamul or Witch king tends to have leadership abilities, heros like "Gothmog" or "The General of Dol Guldur" in the concept step in.

And as i stated in the beginning, i dont expect for this to happen anytime soon (or ever) but it would be nice to see in the game. So you dont have to worry;D
And please read the new concept before commenting.
There you will see it includes no new units for when you want to play the classical Morgul oriented Mordor. But when you want a more hobbit feel, this would be a pretty great concept without tons of work or change to the game as it is now.

And you say all of it is unecessary, sure it is if you just want to play the classical Morgul oriented Mordor, but if there was the ability to chose between also a Dol Guldur oriented Mordor, it would be the best way to include all the good hobbit designs without making alot of people unhappy, and it would certainly make all the botfa Dol Guldur army lovers really happy. And shut them up about the Hobbit evil army.. or atleast me:DD

[Walküre]

Azog, please, don't take this negatively, but if we didn't read your new concept, you also didn't understand properly our criticism 

The main point that you are still missing, I guess, is that your proposal has no reasons at all to see light.
It basically consists of changing something for the sake of changing itself, basing everything on aesthetic purposes, or trying to implement at all costs a specific design.
This is arguably one of the weakest and most inconsistent ways to back what you believe is a good idea that has to be included in the game.

And, again, why should someone choose Minas Morgul or Dol Guldur with the exclusion of one of the two, when both the subfactions legitimately belong to Mordor (as a whole 'realm'/authority)?
These are conceptual and lore issues, not only aesthetic.

[FG15]

Now when you use Saurons influence on the orc pit you unlock orc captains, which have the same effect as the overseers they are only stronger, but they have different designs based on which faction you choose

Definetly won't happen. The system for the orc overseers is already extremly huge system and that would mean to create about 20 new horde definitions. Also, orc overseers are already extremly powerfull, making units up to 4 times as strong.

[Fredius]

Yes but what if I want to play with both Dol Guldur and Morgul and Mordor at the same time ? I read your concept, I don't agree with the sub-faction system because it would ruin the current concept of Mordor. Mordor is the head of all the sub-factions it controls, these are mainly Dol Guldur, Morgul and Cirith Ungol, with Rhun and Harad as it's vassals. The current concept of Mordors gameplay shows this perfectly, and imo it shouldn't be sacrificed just to give people either a Hobbit feeling or a Morgul feeling; why not both !

As for the unit designs, however, I completely agree with you. Dol Guldur orcs look a bit outdated compared to the other models inspired by the Hobbit movie. Probably because they were based on Games Workshops models, which for some reason don't look very much like the movie orcs :/.

I'd also love to see those trolls from the movie. Not to confuse them with the oversized trolls which some people hate (I'm looking at you Melkor Bauglir !), but the ones with the clubs and the awesome helmets. I think it would be great to give the Mountain Trolls the option to have either the Morgul armor or the Dol Guldur armor, each having their own bonusses. On this I also agree with you.

The difference between Gothmog and your General of Dol Guldur is that Gothmog is a real named canonical hero, the General of Dol Guldur is not. Ofcourse every army has commanders, generals, officers and whatever to lead them, but the banner carriers are already like officers to me. Morguls banner carriers have a unique design compared to the orcs they lead; they are based on that orc with the skull and the orc with the white hair that says to Gothmog "the door won't give, it's too strong!". I believe the Dol Guldur banner carrier should also look unique compared to the orcs it leads. I would say give the banner carrier the helmet of the officer that leads Azogs army in the movies (the one with the centurion helmet).

Things like this fleshes the Dol Guldur part of Mordor a lot more imo, and it doesn't sacrifice the concept of being able to play with Mordor and all it's subfactions at once. What do you guys think of this ?

[Azog The Defiler]

Die walkure i do see the point, its just the way i see the game, its a piece of art and its the unit design that add feeling to the game and not necessarily only their purpose.
But i guess youre right.

But anyways Fredius i support your idea, it makes more sense

[Walküre]

I know, Azog, that aesthetic purposes are generally and often the core of many proposals and desires for changes.

But, as far as my brief experience in this forum tells me, people are likely to have the most diverse type of proposals – often one opposing the other – given the very nature of aesthetic suggestions, according to our personal views.
Therefore, it's not surprising that the majority of them doesn't manage to be into the game, because, as I wrote, we are talking about changes for the sake of changes themselves.

This is what I wanted to tell you