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Autor Thema: Imladris Siege  (Gelesen 9443 mal)

Offline VectorMaximus

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Imladris Siege
« am: 15. Feb 2016, 23:19 »
Hello Edain community! Today I'm hoping we can have a nice discussion on what to do about Imladris' siege engines/mechanic. A few months ago there was a fairly large discussion on Moddb about it, with the general consensus being that the Lightbringers (3.8 siege 'wizards', for those who don't know) aren't consistent with the lore and that Imladris could probably do with a new siege.

So, I though to put it to a poll, to see what the general consensus on here is. These are the general options I feel are realistically possible. :D

Option 1: Keep the Lightbringers. Exactly what it says, we keep the lightbringers as the siege, lore issues and all. Some people thought of them as the most iconic and  different part of the 3.8.1 faction, so its not outside of the realm of possibility that they remain the siege if there is enough support for them.

Option 2: Develop a uniquely elven siege engine. We design a new siege engine to match thematically with the Imladris faction, that would function the same as the siege for any other faction. I personally have no thoughts of a siege design that would look suitably Elven, but I'm interested to see if anyone has any ideas, because this seems the simplest solution to the problem.

Option 3: Unit Upgrades. Essentially give the Imladris melee units the ability to upgrade to have increased damage to structures. These would function essentially the same as the Dwarven Siege hammers, but would apply to all melee units. Imladris is already planned as a Infantry-Heavy faction, so this could work well with their play style.

Option 4: Put the siege engines in with the Dunedain. The Dunedain Camp on the settlement is designed to help supplement the Imladris faction's weaknesses, and the Men of the North could bring their siege engines to compensate for the Elves lack of them. Personally I think this idea is the worst, due to the fact that it would basically require an Imladris player to build the Dunedain camp to gain their siege.

If you have an idea for a solution to the siege issues, just say it.

Hope we can all have a nice discussion. :)

VectorMaximus
« Letzte Änderung: 15. Feb 2016, 23:40 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #1 am: 15. Feb 2016, 23:31 »
Hi VectorMaximus  :)

This is a really interesting matter, and I will surely join the discussion once I have time, these busy days.
Though, I will lock the poll feature, for now.

Don't worry, you didn't do anything wrong.
Polls have been under discussion among the Moderators, and we (mainly the Edain Team) eventually decided to make a more specific and constructive usage out of them, via the application of somehow 'stricter' rules.

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32047.msg416612.html#msg416612

Once this thread develops the necessary and suggested level of debate through other people's own opinions, I will make the poll available again  ;)

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #2 am: 15. Feb 2016, 23:33 »
Ah alright. Sorry Walk.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Online DieWalküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #3 am: 15. Feb 2016, 23:37 »
Ah alright. Sorry Walk.


Oh, no, nothing to apologise  :)
We just have to wait a bit, hope that the thread will attract people's interest and develop a decently insightful debate.

As I wrote, I will join the discussion as soon as I can  ;)

Offline Fredius

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #4 am: 16. Feb 2016, 00:27 »
Interesting, I will start the discussion then :P,

As I said on Moddb I would propose for a ballista for the High Elves. However instead of giving the ballista to Imladris I would prefer to give it to the Lindon mini-faction, making the Ballista recruitable in the Lindon settlement.

I think this would be more logical, because in the game the Elven siege ships have ballistas attached to them (shooting magic bolts for some reason but okay :/). Elven ships were mainly made in the Grey Havens if I'm not mistaken, so that would give us the opportunity to make a Grey Havens Ballista. Ofcourse I wouldn't mind giving Imladris the ballista instead, but to me a Grey Havens ballista is far more logical considering the fact that they already have those on their ships.

As for the Lightbringers: NO. I'm absolutely against this, it is not logical to give multiple Elves more magical powers than Gandalf or Saruman, two fricking Istari. And, personally, one of the reasons that I love Lord of the rings/The hobbit is that magic isn't used as excessively as in other fantasy movies or books. Magic in Middle-Earth is only limited to a handfull of people, and imo it would be best to keep it that way.

And please don't say that we should limit the lightbringers to 3, that is a very easy solution to anything :D. Imladris already has a limited unit in the form of Glorfindels Windriders.

EDIT: Forgot to expand upon the other two options.

I wouldn't really mind if the Dunedain got the Ballista; but that would take the fun out of it :P. Imladris will be unique by being the only Elves with a siege weapon. High Elves are great smiths and builders, so their siege weapons should be of the highest quality.

As for upgrades, I'm not in favor of that. Can they also be used against walls? If so then it would be a bit overpowered if you ask me.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Feb 2016, 00:40 von Fredius »

Offline VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #5 am: 16. Feb 2016, 02:43 »
While I can definitely see the Balistas working for Imladris, would they be of the same base appearance, or would they be modified to look more 'elven'? I just don't want to have an Isengard ballista with elves manning it. :)

My personal preference would go for either the siege engine like you suggested, provided a good design was suggested, or the weapon upgrades. I didn't think about whether they would be able to target walls, but that would be OP, wouldn't it? My thought was that the upgrade would double damage vs structures and allow basic infantry to target gates.

But I absolutely do agree on the lightbringer account. They're out of place and not canonical in the slightest.

That's my personal view on the subject.
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Offline Linhir

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #6 am: 16. Feb 2016, 03:12 »
I can think about one machine, that would look epic, but it could serve only for destroying gates. Some elvish style ballista with ropes tied to bolts. Bolts will pierce even thickest gates, stuck with heads on theirs internal side and Elves could coil rope with special crank to open the gate. What do you think?  xD

EDIT.

Second could be just ladders. I don't see any other siege weapons in hands of Tolkien's elves. It's just... not fitting.

Eventually, some kind of dunadain kamikaze which sacrifice himself in order to set on fire and destroy enemy's building to give his kinsmans chance to win a hopeless battle.

And well... I must admit, I didn't read thread before i posted here first time... looks like ballistas are only fitting solution.  xD
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Feb 2016, 04:38 von Linhir »

Offline Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #7 am: 16. Feb 2016, 03:49 »
Very interesting thread.

Overall I agree about the lightbringers being uncanon, and while acceptable (and quite cool and iconic) if kept at below-istari level, making them the only siege engine would be...kind of out of place.

I would very much like the possibility to field an elven-made siege engine, which would make Imladris even more unique, and I support the idea of it being furnished by Lindon. After all, Rivendell is no place to build siege machinery: remember the narrow walkways and all those stairs? how would they even get it out of the main gate?

As for design, they do need something unique, and perhaps we could take a look at the Reaper Bolt Thrower of the Dark Elves from Warhammer



Yes it looks quite much aggressive, but if adapted to the smooth, silvery-white of Lindon, it could be quite unique as for design. Can't remember the game having a vertical ballista.

Another example could be the High Elves's Reaper Bolt Thrower



Just throwing out things here, trying to figure out how the actual thing would look. These two would be far more effective against infantry then buildings, but I can't really imagine Elves taking up a long and ramming down enemy gates, so...
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Feb 2016, 04:05 von Spacetyrant93 »

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #8 am: 16. Feb 2016, 05:00 »
Don't have much to say, I just agree with the ballista idea. Like other before me I really don't see elves charging in with a battering ram and ramming the door unless it's an automated one.

Offline Fine

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #9 am: 16. Feb 2016, 07:47 »
I really like the look of the darkelven Reaper Bolt Thrower with the vertical firing mechanism in the center. I could definitely see something like this replacing the Lightbringers.

Offline The_Necromancer0

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #10 am: 16. Feb 2016, 08:34 »
I've read up a bit on various forums and apart from the ballista I think that the elves might have sneaky ways that are more in tune with nature rather than technological advancements. I was thinking that it should be possible to use something like stealth scouted units that slowly sabotage the building/gate but that can't attack the wall. I think it would be quite unique if they are stronger than usual against buildings and gate but can't attack walls. Maybe not eve destroy the gates but simply disable them for an extended period of time. I think that it's important to give Imladris a unique system. So sorting through my possible ideas:
  • can't attack walls
  • doesn't destroy gate only sabotage
  • more damage than other siege units against the buildings
  • single scout-like heroic units

But I still really like the ballista.

Offline Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #11 am: 16. Feb 2016, 13:37 »
Zitat
I really like the look of the darkelven Reaper Bolt Thrower with the vertical firing mechanism in the center. I could definitely see something like this replacing the Lightbringers.

Glad you do :) it does have an Elven feeling to it even if dark asn spiky, plus it has a nice and unique silhuette that would allow it to stand out against other siege weapons. At least that's how I see it. And it wouldn't be a replacement, just...Lindon's own siege. Rivendell, as I said, is hardly a place to assemble war machinery, so they stick to arcane arts, but he Grey Havens have plenty of space and, as others said, the skill to realize such a thing.

Zitat
I've read up a bit on various forums and apart from the ballista I think that the elves might have sneaky ways that are more in tune with nature rather than technological advancements. I was thinking that it should be possible to use something like stealth scouted units that slowly sabotage the building/gate but that can't attack the wall. I think it would be quite unique if they are stronger than usual against buildings and gate but can't attack walls. Maybe not eve destroy the gates but simply disable them for an extended period of time. I think that it's important to give Imladris a unique system. So sorting through my possible ideas:
-can't attack walls
-doesn't destroy gate only sabotage
-more damage than other siege units against the buildings
-single scout-like heroic units

But I still really like the ballista.

So in a certain way like Annatar's ultimate, only applying to gates? That certainly is interesting, but maybe it would be more fitting for Lothlorien/Mirkwood, as Lindon and Imladris have demonstrated their military prowess and look more like heavy hitters than sneaky bastards.
Actually, it would be very interesting to have Wood Elves access such units, given that their other option for siege are Ents, quite expensive and slooooooowww, so this could actually be a different tactic. Plus, Wood Elves have shown us quite well their ninja prowess :P
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Feb 2016, 14:06 von Spacetyrant93 »

Offline Melkor Bauglir

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #12 am: 16. Feb 2016, 15:15 »
To be honest, I'd also prefer normal siege engines over those "Discount 'The Last Airbender'-elves". They are certainly funny, but their usage of magic is without a doubt the biggest stylistic overkill in the entire mod -and that's saying something with Angmar being a faction! xD
I mean, I like the Lightbringers to a certain degree and Angmar is one of my favourite factions, but this usage of magic seems way to excessive. I agree of course that Imladris shouldn't have super massive siege engines (like Isengard ballista sized ones), therefore I like the concept of these rather small ballistas. However we have to thing about animations and I guess there aren't any for these Reaper Bolt Throwers, at least if they are used the way I think they are.
To bring up another point: I would prefer to keep the mystical theme of ancient wisdom for the siege engines, too. For example, I see no problem in having a ballista as the real weapon, but being able to add Scholars as kind of siege supervisors. I hope you get the idea, it could be played out similiar to orc-overseers (just to have an example how it might work) -probably not the same way because of technical issues, but I'd love to let my siege engineers to be advised by some "all knowing, yet useless in practical things"-elf (otherwise called the typical engineer-mathematician-relationship :D).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Feb 2016, 15:25 von Melkor Bauglir »

Offline Odysseus

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #13 am: 16. Feb 2016, 15:42 »
I absolutely love the idea of a small, but nimble multi-fire ballista of some sort. In my opinion, it suits the technological prowess and craftsmanship of the Scholars of Aüle, The Noldor.

That, or Lindon. As was pointed out, Rivendell did not look like it really possessed any place or room to construct siege engines. But hey, in 3.8.1, the Hobbits had big Fireworks Ballistas, and they seem to be the last folk that would go to war with such weaponry. I am sure we can afford ourselves some liberty on the subject.

I like the idea of small anti-infantry ballista with the siege damage equivalent of a regular ram, but it would probably require custom animations, which sucks big time.

Another idea was to make Eagles some form of siege engine, which would be pretty unique, but then Fellbeasts will be inevitably drawn into the equation. Nonetheless, I think this is also an option, even though it would be difficult to balance.

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Offline Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #14 am: 16. Feb 2016, 15:46 »
Zitat
However we have to thing about animations and I guess there aren't any for these Reaper Bolt Throwers, at least if they are used the way I think they are.
Zitat
but it would probably require custom animations, which sucks big time.

Indeed that would be the main issue. It was discussed as well in the thread for the Dwarven Wind Lance. It depends if the animation from the Isengard's ballista can be twisted around (quite literally in this case) and adapted to such a form. Maybe even a 'bow' animation from archer unit could be used....no idea how, I have very very limited experience in animation, it would be up to the Team to say if it's possible or not.

Zitat
add Scholars as kind of siege supervisors
well lol, that'd be fun. "the ancients say to take your time so that your aim might hit true" "Sure, sure...now pull that level and let's impale those beasts!" "sigh..."  :D

Zitat
the Hobbits had big Fireworks Ballistas
Man I hated those things! Nothing worse for your pride than being nuked by freaking Hobbits!

As for Eagles, I wouldn't know, I believe they fit fine as a temporary summon. Though, they're perfect anti-siege weapons (I hope they go back at taking out catapults in 1-2 hits)