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Imladris Siege

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aminetude:

--- Zitat von: Spacetyrant93 am 18. Feb 2016, 01:20 --- The main exemples would be Gulzar and Angmar's Sorcerers. True, they might have learned from the Witch King, but still...even Mornamath can turn his men into wraiths, all of them present on the map. And Mouth of Sauron has his fancy green lightning (he's numenorean, ok, but still). That's quite the magic show, and indirect only to a certain point.

--- Ende Zitat ---
Well yes, that's very true, but when i tought of it, even the nine get their power from the nercomencer, so all of his servant's power is nothing but an extension of Sauron's witchcraft. I really find it very logical, i mean since the real body of Sauron was lost in the sea, even upon his return to middle-earth in the second age, he knew he will never has his former great power, but he used his minions to reflect his true abilities, when i think of it, it was like a pact, the mortals would sacrifice a part of their bodies' power, and receive instead the blessing ( " the dooming" ) of Sauron, and let his witchcraft be summonable by them. And for the people of Angmar, that kindgom was made when Sauron was litteraly weak, he couldnt draw the attention of the White Council ( wich consisted more members by the way, strong ones that were hyper-actif near Arnor, like Glorfiendel ) , anyway, he sent his most powerful and trusted servant ( the witch king ) to lead that kingdom, the witch king taught some mortals in black magic, but still it was by the will of sauron that it happened, i mean you could even say, sauron was the one instructing them, since he is present in the hearts of all the nine. I also remember the sorcerers mechanics, they would sacrifice their mortal follows to perform rituals, it is much similar to the anciant world' religions, they would pour blood to gain the blessing of their god ( in this case Sauron is presented as their eternal leader ).
The elves on the other side, had a rational bound with ... well everything alive, and since the main aspect of life is nature itself, so even without being one of the greatest that could use magic, the elves could at least do some tiny magical acts of their own, but they were always meant to aid not to harm, only few of them could perform greater magic, i mean Elrond himself was exeptional, he was gifted, he used some magic to protect the borders of his house, but still i doubt his arcan powers would surpass those of an istari in middle earth ( note that i said middle earth, because i know istari got entirely another amount of power in the undying lands ), but Galadriel, the elf-maiden that saw the light of the trees was taught by a Valar in magic, so she had powers beyond imagination, i could say that she was actually almost the only elf that used true magic in middle earth, i mean that's why all who don't know of her story ( mostly mortals ) say an elvish witch lives in lorien, they can feel the truth of magic powers  she got, even she never made a display against them, so compared to her, the other elves are just playing with nature not performing magic  :D :DWell sorry for this long paragraph, i just passed all the exams, and i am back and ready to share my toughts with everyone  ;)

Walküre:
Well, Elven scholars with supportive abilities could be an interesting idea, and a reasonable compromise, I would say.
So, yes, my 'cruelty' might find rest with this concept  xD

About Magic, there are pages and pages that could be written about this fundamental theme.
But, since this is not the Lore Corner, I will try to be concise  :)

In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

Said that, the only ones – in the late Third Age – that seem to respect those characteristics are Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch-king and, probably, the Mouth of Sauron, even though the last is indeed covered a bit by an aura of mystery.
Both the Witch-king and the Mouth of Sauron are Human beings, but of a Númenórean descent, enhanced via any possible means by Sauron, especially by the action of the Rings of Power (I read that the Mouth of Sauron might wield one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves, explaining thus his powers and inhuman longevity).
About Angmar, no, I don't think that single characters could have used Magic at that extent by themselves, without the guidance of their Master, who probably was the source of all their powers as Sauron is for Mordor.
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

Beside that, focusing solely on the Elven factions, about which one may rightly expect the iconic and very known display of Tolkien-ish Magic that the Elves are renowned for, the arguments above are more than legitimate, I believe.
Therefore, scholars with the ability of freely bending elements at their will shouldn't be theoretically acceptable, with all the respect for their original concept.
Only the Guardians of the Three and other Elven exceptions can legitimately be endowed with such magical properties, as we have knowledge of in the lore  8-)

Only the ultimate and mightiest heroes of a faction consequently and logically have the mightiest powers.
In my personal view, at least.

aminetude:

--- Zitat von: DieWalküre am 18. Feb 2016, 11:29 ---Well, Elven scholars with supportive abilities could be an interesting idea, and a reasonable compromise, I would say.
So, yes, my 'cruelty' might find rest with this concept  xD

About Magic, there are pages and pages that could be written about this fundamental theme.
But, since this is not the Lore Corner, I will try to be concise  :)

In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

Said that, the only ones – in the late Third Age – that seem to respect those characteristics are Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch-king and, probably, the Mouth of Sauron, even though the last is indeed covered a bit by an aura of mystery.
Both the Witch-king and the Mouth of Sauron are Human beings, but of a Númenórean descent, enhanced via any possible means by Sauron, especially by the action of the Rings of Power (I read that the Mouth of Sauron might wield one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves, explaining thus his powers and inhuman longevity).
About Angmar, no, I don't think that single characters could have used Magic at that extent by themselves, without the guidance of their Master, who probably was the source of all their powers as Sauron is for Mordor.
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

Beside that, focusing solely on the Elven factions, about which one may rightly expect the iconic and very known display of Tolkien-ish Magic that the Elves are renowned for, the arguments above are more than legitimate, I believe.
Therefore, scholars with the ability of freely bending elements at their will shouldn't be theoretically acceptable, with all the respect for their original concept.
Only the Guardians of the Three and other Elven exceptions can legitimately be endowed with such magical properties, as we have knowledge of in the lore  8-)

Only the ultimate and mightiest heroes of a faction consequently and logically have the mightiest powers.
In my personal view, at least.

--- Ende Zitat ---
Greatly said Walkure  ;)

Linhir:
Or... lightbringers could just be renamed and they could use some old world's artifacts? Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)

VectorMaximus:
I created a separate Lore page which contains all I know about the lesser rings, so we can have some background for the suggestions and any subsequent discussion of their usage. However, definitely keep on that track, it could make a very interesting discussion!

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32695.0.html

However, onto the actual suggestion for the lightbringers 'wielding' the lesser rings (Magic Rings, as Linhir called them).

--- Zitat von: Linhir am 18. Feb 2016, 12:26 ---Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)

--- Ende Zitat ---
In my opinion this would be the closest they could actually get in a lore-friendly way to wielding elemental powers, but they would have to be few in number due to a limited number of lesser rings, of which only a few are held by the free people (if any!) by the War of the Ring.

However, on a separate note, I fully support the Lightbringers as scholarly support characters, and I can go either for or against their old role.

Btw Walk, you should just make a page in the Lore section that's "On Magic in Tolkien's World", then you can just redirect people there whenever they use Magic (Power magic that is; enchanting blades and artifacts is still within the possibility of the Elves in the 3rd age, correct? Lorien cloaks, for example) incorrectly, rather then having to retype it out in a billion threads, which you seem to have done at this point. :D

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