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Autor Thema: Imladris Siege  (Gelesen 16294 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #60 am: 18. Feb 2016, 15:46 »
Thank you, Vector, for having acknowledged my unspeakable efforts  :D
Yes, you're right, it would definitely be more useful just redirecting people to a proper lore thread, even though, I have to say, repeating things sometimes is useful too, and, regarding this topic, my arguments were intertwined with actual conceptual reasons, focused exactly on these matters  xD

Ok, that lore topic could be interesting in order to insightfully explore your speculations more deeply.
Keep in mind, though, that if there are conceptual suggestions/points on Lightbringers' role or status in the Mod – if you basically want to prove something right or wrong – the Edain Suggestions section is exactly the suitable place.
The Lore section shouldn't theoretically deal with any game-related theme (even if the matter concerns the lore legitimacy of any aspect in the Mod).

P.S. It would be better if all the possible lore information gathered in this forum were part of the Lore Corner thread, since, as you may have noticed, they already exist vast debates about Magic, there  :)
I will merge everything with our monumental lore thread.
Che solo amore e luce ha per confine

VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #61 am: 18. Feb 2016, 15:56 »
I had intended the "on the lesser rings of power" post to be one where people would go to it, read up on the lore aspect, then return here to discuss the actual application of said lore. I didn't intend for it to become a discussion place for the Lightbringers (which it might if things go the way they appear! :D). So the actual post is rightfully there for a lore discussion, not because I want to argue any particular way for the Lightbringers there. That rightfully belongs here, as I did in my previous post. The Lightbringer debate will pass eventually, but there could still be need for a Lore discussion on the Lesser Rings, hence why I put it there.
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Feb 2016, 16:02 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #62 am: 18. Feb 2016, 16:25 »
Yes, your thread is kind of taking that direction.
That's why I advised you about it  xD

What I wanted to tell you is that, if there are comments intertwined with lore legitimacy matters in the Edain Mod, they nonetheless belong here, in this section  ;)
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Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #63 am: 18. Feb 2016, 17:01 »
Zitat
In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

The magic I referred to is what I saw in the game.

Zitat
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

We also have to consider that, while fictional, it may only go so much against general lore, if the rest of the game is completely lore-based. Fictional of course, as there's little choice otherwise, but not completely different from the others, otherwise there could just be the Scourge from WoW imported.

Mine however wasn't an argument about lore, about which I believe I can call myself ignorant, as much as of overall game coherence. It is said that only certain beings can use power, definetly not Men. In my profane eyes, I just don't see why, in a place where ''magic'' (as smoky as the concept can be) is said to be accessible to very few individuals, a human can turn entire armies into wraiths while Elves, some of whom fit the requirements to use power, occupied with studying the ancient arts, and have been possibly been doing so for decades, cannot even summon a fireball.

It may very well just be me having a closed mind, but this all just..irks me. I would just say to give the Lightbringers have a different role, but not remove them.
My apologies if this is the wrong thread to expose such a thought, I just made my point about Lightbringers, whom were object of partial discussion here.

aminetude

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #64 am: 18. Feb 2016, 17:43 »
By all means Mr Spacetyrant, you have the right to share your toughts here as any one else have. Actually when i think of it, it isnt a very big deal, that could make the lore foundations shake when wrongly intersepted, each of us almost have the same ideas but we explain them in a much different way. And as long as we are sharing these fruitfull toughts, there is no harm in it at all. And your replies were very polite and well written so as the others's  ;) 
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #65 am: 18. Feb 2016, 17:51 »
Spacetyrant, I know that it's the type of Magic you saw in the game (the one you mentioned in your comment, I meant that).
I was in fact making arguments exactly to correct the aspects I don't think they are suitable to be accountable to the Lightbringers  :)

In my reasoning, I never implied that no one could use Magic apart from the said and famous characters.
The problem is the display and type of Magic itself: bending the elements.
Even Galadriel and Elrond can't do it freely without some boundaries related to what they wield (Nenya and Vilya) and where they are (in their own realm, or in distant and hostile places?).
Even summoning a sole tiny fireball wouldn't be acceptable, according to the implications I talked about in the comments above.
I know that it may seem strict, but I also think I share the same considerations of many other people's thoughts, which exactly consist of asking for a more conceptual lore harmony (that it's well constructed in Lothlórien) in Imladris, by suggesting alternatives.

Yes, Angmar has those fictional elements, but I also explained why I think they are needed, and why Angmar should be regarded as a specific system on its own.
The Elven factions, instead, currently are and should be the great and reasonable summary of what we saw in the cinematographic adaptations, and what we read in the legitimate Elven lore (that Tolkien always fancied the most).
A lore in which scholars gleefully playing with elements wouldn't be so suitable, I guess.

Yes, this is the right place to discuss about Lightbringers as well (given the topic); unless we decide to start another new specific topic just for them, and maybe even start a poll.
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Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #66 am: 19. Feb 2016, 02:52 »



Now I see your point, and overall on the Lightbringers I agree. Indeed they don't fit with the powers they display at the moment.

On Angmar, while I see your point I personally don't share it. I'd still see it better as adapted to the others and fitting in in all aspects than having it go 'Yolo' with the excuse of it being fictional. Don't mean to sound offensive, just my thoughts.

Now, back to lightbringers:if we keep them, perhaps we could still have them as a supporting unit, and with an elemental twist, only more passive and, to use Tolkien's words, Unseen. They may have studied the ways of the Elements, but in a 'spiritual' way, not unlike what we see from the Three Rings.

Let me explain:
This idea would see the Lightbringers as something of a cross between Orc Overseers and Elven Chanters. When produced, they are pure white, and technically speaking not unlike the scholars, but they can be made to join a troop of unit, and then unlock a selected power they have studied:
-Fire makes the spirits of the unit burn with unstoppable will, increasing their damage
-Water blesses the troops with the light touch of running water, gaining a passive heal when not fighting
-Earth awakens stony resolve into troops, whose armor values increase
-Wind makes the units run on the winds, increasing movement speed

Of course none of these abilities would be strong enough to hold a candle to the powers of the Three, and a single Lightbringer may unlock only one.

An alternative would be to have them run freely as single units, and have all the elemental powers available to make an aura that has the same effect listed above, only temporary and needing to cooldown after use.

I propose this just because, while out of place, I can quite see Elves in tune with the forces of nature, and after seeing the effects of the Rings, perhaps this support role would be acceptable. Not exagerated, and more spiritual than actually magical, it could be more fitting.

Golem

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #67 am: 19. Feb 2016, 10:20 »
I like that idea and I definitely agree with it. It'd be a shame if the Lightbringers got removed, and what Spacetyran93 suggested in my mind is the perfect role for the Lightbringers.

CragLord

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #68 am: 19. Feb 2016, 16:03 »
Concerning supportive usage of lightbringers, I agree that something similar to your suggestion would be nice and reasonable. I support that kind of proposal completely.
I am more for focus on that way of discussion.
Concening Angamar heroes and their magic capabilities, I would say it is matter of some other topic, and I will underline that we should probably discuss about that when new patch is out (just to say, I am also not found of some invented abilities for new non canon heroes in Agmar, but that kind of discussion deserve new topic I think).
I understad that you wanted to compare these two situations on level of magic capabilities of humans and elves etc, but it is not wise to justify (even in minor way) lighbringers usage of magic because some human heroes have great magic abilities in Angmar etc. Simply we should focus on lighbringers as much as we can in lore terms, and other situation to leave for some other time. Simply in my opinion, if Angmar heroes have those magical abilities, and some of them are really not canon for Tolkien world etc (as you have said Scourge from WC3), we shouldn't justify lightbringer situation on that (no canon) one. Simply it is wrong!
Now concerning lightbringers, I like your proposal in one way.
I am not sure have I understood you completelly, when you have said Unseen world, and then describe them as not current  scholars, is that in look term? I mean, white as wights which exist in current Mordor faction?

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 19. Feb 2016, 16:39 von CragLord »

Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #69 am: 19. Feb 2016, 16:29 »
@CragLord

Ok get it, perhaps I went kind of too over-the-top with the Angmar argument. Wasn't trying to be wise, just to be...'fair', I suppose. I just didn't see why being so stricht with everything, but let Angmar 'off the leash' (please pass me that term, I don't mean it in a bad way) because of its mostly fictional build. True, we don't know much about it lore-wise, but still to me that's not a reason to overdo it, which in my eyes is what's happening. But I would propose to stop the Angmar argument here, we might take it somewhere else in a more appropriate section :)

Back to Lightbringers, yes that was confusing, please forgive me, wrote that at 2 in the morning while battling insomnia xD

From what I gathered from Tolkien Gateway, the Unseen is a spiritual world where some powers extend when used. Kind of like Wraith-World, but on a neutral level. I'm sure there are lore masters here that can explain this far better than I. Take it on my part as 'passive' power, a power you don't see but see its effects.
About the white I was referring to the vanilla Lightbringer, this guy:

(as I see it, he looks similar to Scholars in everything but the staff)

And I did not explain it further, please forgive me, but in the ideas I proposed, their robe color would change to the chosen element for when they join units, or would stay white if they are lone units.

Hope I cleared everything up, sorry again for being so vague.

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #70 am: 20. Feb 2016, 15:09 »
I think we all agree about Angmar at an extent, beside our different positions  :)
Angmar is my least favourite faction exactly due to its particular lore-loose characteristics.
I was trying to explain why those said characteristics are needed, taking the faction's perspective; I too would personally like some changes aimed to – as Spacetyrant said – have Angmar more under the 'lore leash' as all the other factions.
Nevertheless, I'm sure there will be possible improvements regarding this significant matter; but, as you would all agree, it would be better waiting for the release of the new patch and, in case, for the establishment of the very Angmar Suggestions board in the forum.

Regarding Lightbringers, I again reaffirm my support for them being scholars endowed with supportive abilities, as a sort of reflection of the Elven singers in Lothlórien (more or less).
Furthermore, as far as I know, the Unseen dimension is something that only the Blessed/High Elves of Valinor (or the ones who have lived there in specific moments of their life) are very acquainted with, being that dimension a sole thing with the physical one in the Blessed Realm.
Probably, ordinary Elves of the Third Age are too seen as bright spirits in the Unseen World (as BOTFA shows), but I don't really think they have a great and direct influence on it.

So, I would just focus on the library-like nature of Rivendell as a gathering shelter for knowledge as well, instead of widening the topic towards greater themes (as the Unseen World).
Anyway, I'm very confident that we are reaching more and more a polished proposal  ;)
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KingdomofErebor

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #71 am: 23. Feb 2016, 22:26 »
Hi folks just saw this threat from the great vecotr maximus and I always love to throw around some ideas for new units.

To begin with, I never had a chance to use the lightbringers as I never downloaded 3.8, but from what I've heard, (and seen from some very helpful RuudDevil videos) the light bringers were mages that acted like seige. Now as cool as this is , it's not really in keeping with the elven war tactics, yes Elrond can use sorcery and yes Rivendell is a font of all knowledge but I think we would be passing up a really exciting opportunity if we went for the light bringers. So without further adue here are my ideas for Imladris Siege.

First off I think the Ents are out, they're already used for Lorien, who have more of an afinity with nature than the rivendell scholars, so something else is needed. Unlike the Dwarven siege weapons that are huge, lumbering power houses, Elven seige weapons need to be stream lined and agile, while still being able to pack a punch.

For something like this I feel adopting an elven style balista could work quite well, we've seen something similar on the bombardment ships,  it is basic however with some Edain magic we could get some really cool looking designs.

If we wanted to keep things simple, then we could re skin trebuchets and battering rams for imladris, although they seem a bit heavy and clunky for a graceful and elegant race like the elves.

finally although it's a nice idea, I don't think siege weapons should be recruited from the Dunedien camp as it doesn't have any sort of work shop, its a circle of tents! That said, perhaps a "Dunedien workshop" could be a structure for the main castle, preventing the need to rely on capturing settlements for siege.

Let me know what you think!

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lord_ellessar

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #72 am: 26. Feb 2016, 14:17 »
Maybe an ability (for light bearers or something else) that make growing vines on walls, that could be a alternative of ladders or siege towers, depending on how much life they have :)
Folks of middle earth




Dendrotheos

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #73 am: 26. Feb 2016, 15:42 »
I admit that I am unlearned in Silmarilion knowledge, being a purely LoTR reader, but I never really fealt convinced by the Lightbringers in 3.8.1, as I only really imagined the Istari casting magic, being themselves wizards. I don't doubt that the High Elves extensively used magic, I admit again that I don't have much knowledge on the subject of middle-earth magic, but I always viewed Rivendel as a place purely of knowledge thereof, and thus little magic as such. For this reason I personally was not convinced by the idea of using lightbringers in the Rivendel faction.
The Team will always have my full support in whichever direction they take with the Imladris faction, but I think, in the interests of siege units, Imladris should have a physical and relatively powerful siege engine. The previously suggested catapult of the Florentian Leonardo Da Vinci is certainly a valid suggestion; there are possible parallels between Imladris and Renaissance Italy in the seeking of Ancient knowledge for modern means. My personal stance on the issue is that some kind of catapult would work better as a siege unit, using the lightbringers for some other perpose, such as for example a unit supporter but with a different set of abilities to the Lorien singers.
I hope this is a meaningful contribution to the issue :)
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CragLord

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #74 am: 24. Mär 2016, 12:37 »
Interesting video about Da Vinci catapult: Link
It is nice insight about way it works.  ;)

Regards,
CragLord
« Letzte Änderung: 24. Mär 2016, 14:01 von CragLord »