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Autor Thema: Imladris Siege  (Gelesen 36807 mal)

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #45 am: 17. Feb 2016, 01:10 »
Ok, the thread developed indeed, so rapidly  xD

I don't feel like adding other arguments in favour of the siege-machines-oriented proposal that is being gradually polished, as other people already presented strong and valuable reasons  :)
I just say that I completely support any suggestion aimed to give a proper and decent representation of the Noldorin warfare (siege, in this case), worthy of their millennial tradition.

Regarding the Lightbringers, I express again my disapproval for their reintegration in the faction; even though I respect the current position of the Edain Team and I wait to see what the planned innovations will consist of.
Not only are they not lore accurate, but they also give us a representation, a display of Magic too much loose and 'Harry Potter'-like (and I don't really intend to undermine the importance of that great novel or of the game itself), while we know that only the Ainur and very few High Elves like Galadriel could reach that level of magical manipulation of the physical environment, still conserving the peculiar Tolkien-ish deep and subtle/founding type of Magic.

The Lightbringers have thus not so much space, I guess, in the rationalised and reworked 4.0 Imladris, considering the previous points I referred to.
Moreover, as far as I remember, many people on ModDB expressed as well contrary feelings about them; I wouldn't really be able to tell if they still are the majority among the Edain Community or not, but they are indeed many people.

We could start a new thematic debate about Lightbringers in the future, where we could gather more appropriately the Edain Community's feedback about this matter.
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Feb 2016, 01:20 von DieWalküre »

Dadoone

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #46 am: 17. Feb 2016, 08:40 »
+1 for balista, Davinci Catapult, or scorpion idea ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 17. Feb 2016, 08:43 von Dadoone »

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #47 am: 17. Feb 2016, 09:29 »
I am more for the Da Vinci Catapult mainly for design and model which feels somewhat closer to the Elven style ! The Scorpion feels rather good too,but I am mainly for the Da Vinci Catapult,it wil lbe a really unique looking Siege Weapon for the one of the last Noldor Elves in Middle Earth. :)
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #48 am: 17. Feb 2016, 12:29 »
Yes, the Da Vinci catapult is a really great proposal!
How, as an Italian, could I ever not like one of Leonardo's creations?  8-)



Also, a note for everyone interested in the discussion: I think that we are getting closer and closer to reaching a quite 'final' (articulated) debate, with precise suggestions backed by serious reasonings and concepts.
Therefore, so far, these are the options that seem to be rather complete.

  • The Da Vinci catapult, symbol of the Noldorin impressive warfare.
  • Scorpion.
  • Ballista.
  • The Lightbringers remain as the faction's main source for siege warfare.

There could obviously be other options if someone is willing to propose something else.
Furthermore, I added the options about siege machines as if they theoretically didn't exclude the presence of Lightbringers or reworked Lightbringers, because I'm not really sure if we can really add an option that consists of the complete exclusion of them from the whole game.
Probably, this is a matter – the role of Lightbringers – that we ought to discuss later, once the Edain Team presents us new information or material about their plans.

Besides, returning to the siege debate, if the suggestions are well structured and defined, I guess we will be more than legitimate to start an official poll and inform the Edain Community about it  :)

LordDainIronfoot

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #49 am: 17. Feb 2016, 12:58 »
I mayself was never big fan of the Lightbringers,they alwasy felt too non canon and non Tolkienish considering the Magic in Middle Earth and Lightbringers are like Lesser Galadriels,it is not like every Noldor Elf can have the Magics and Destructive power of Galadriel or learn Magic strong enough to beat Armies and Ruin Fortresses,but still I won't have problem with somehow revised versions of Lightbringers,but I deffinetely feel that the Da Vinci Catapult is the best option since as some said and I agree Ballista are more Dwarvish than Elvish stlye,plus the Catapult will be one unique in every way Elven Siege Machine that no other Faction will have! :)

Greeting.
"I will not stand down before any Elf,not least this Faithless Woodland Sprite,he wishesh nothing but ill upon my people...To Battle,to Battle Sons of Durin!!!..."

"You,think I give a dead dog about your threats you Pointy Ear Princess...Hear now lads,we are on...Let's give those bastards a good Hammering!!!..."

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #50 am: 17. Feb 2016, 18:10 »
I mayself was never big fan of the Lightbringers,they alwasy felt too non canon and non Tolkienish considering the Magic in Middle Earth and Lightbringers are like Lesser Galadriels,it is not like every Noldor Elf can have the Magics and Destructive power of Galadriel or learn Magic strong enough to beat Armies and Ruin Fortresses,but still I won't have problem with somehow revised versions of Lightbringers,but I deffinetely feel that the Da Vinci Catapult is the best option since as some said and I agree Ballista are more Dwarvish than Elvish stlye,plus the Catapult will be one unique in every way Elven Siege Machine that no other Faction will have! :)

I would honestly say that I would be a bit 'cruel' regarding the Lightbringers' future in Imladris  xD
If it depended on me, they would not be present at all in the game.

You and other people both here and on ModDB already gave valuable reasons, mainly dealing with lore accuracy and conceptual consistency in their very faction.
Although I am well aware that many efforts and ideas must have been poured into their concept by the Edain Team – when they originally conceived them – I also feel that their existence in the game somehow lost its reasons to be.

The Edain Mod 3.8.1 version is indeed a great version, that I'm sure will remain an iconic remnant of the Mod's history with the building system; and it is also the first version I played since my discovery of the very Mod.
But, I always thought, on the other hand, that the same version sometimes presented a kind of dispersive element in its own great structure, caused basically by the impressive (sometimes slightly excessive?) presence and display of concepts and features, along with more fictional content than the current version (necessarily given by the fact that the Hobbit films were not all out yet or at all at that time, and that the Edain Team started to work on their new project, leaving aside the previous one).
That said, the Lightbringers did fit greatly in that context.

On the other side, we have our new Edain Mod 4.0, characterised by a very rationalised structure that combines within itself innovative material (varying from graphical aspects to balance) and concepts with smarter systems/features, yet being at the same time simpler in its form and defined, revealing a truly solid essence.
Needless to say, lore aspects are even more accurate and prominent in the game.
Therefore, I could regard this reason as well as one of the probable arguments why there could be the possibility of Lightbringers being not suitable anymore for the new Imladris, if we look at the current context.

Nevertheless, as I already wrote, this issue will be surely dealt with better in the next weeks/month, in case we received more specific news; also because I never played with the new Rivendell either, so that preconceptions and prejudices might be proven not accurate  ;)

P.S. That rationalised should be regarded in its more philosophical meaning, as something that acquired a more defined and diversified structure based on reasonable and clearer characteristics  :)

Fredius

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #51 am: 17. Feb 2016, 18:52 »
Completely agree with you Walk. However I personally dont mind if the Lightbringers stay, its just that they shouldnt fullfill the role of siege weapons instead of real siege engines. Also the powers they have are a bit out of place. If they were just scholars who give extra supportive effects to regular units then you wont hear me nagging anylonger xD.

aminetude

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #52 am: 17. Feb 2016, 23:24 »
Also, about the lighbringers, i dont want them to get removed, but instead to just give them other abilities that support the army, i would say it would be very wise to give them a passive ability that boosts the units healing speed, and that would be very lore accurate, since lord Elrond of Rivendell was a very good and an amazing healer, it would be logic that he taught some of his follow noldors how to relieve their friends from the pain of wounds and war, like that the lightbringers would be very helpful, since the noldor units are few and costy, and to resist combat they would need any kind of support to have a chance to destroy the enemy. I really like them, and i agree that their previous powers in Edain 3.8.1 werent very accurate, since few of the high elves were talented in magic, i mean Galadriel herself didnt just go out using magic whenever she want, and she was well instructed in it more than any other elf in the third age, i mean that's what makes magic a "magical" thing, if it was just used all the time, it wouldnt be that special, but still the healing was a low form of magic, it was much more of a bond with  the nature and  the spirit rather than with arcan powers and sources. But this is just a tought of course, if the ET see it fit to remove them, i won't complain, and if ever the noldor needed support, and would aid them with lorien, and let Galadriel the blessed, use her ring nenya on them, i mean that would be awesome, imagine an invulnerable army of the noldor in the enemy base, it is a nightmare, and they do a lot of damage and hard to kill, and with Galadriel on their side destroying the buildings, it would be hell to stand against the elvish alliance hahaha:)
Ps: By the way, i never tried, is galadriel's ring power usable on allies as well ?
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

CragLord

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #53 am: 17. Feb 2016, 23:44 »

I like that idea. :)

Spacetyrant93

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #54 am: 18. Feb 2016, 01:20 »
All these engines look awesome, with my personal preference for Davinci's catapult and roman scorpion.

On the Lightbringers, it's true that they don't really fit in the lore, and their usage of magic is out of place, but still...i tell you, if they don't cover the 'siege' part, but are more of support, I like them.
Plus, are their powers really that out place? While it is true that 'magic' was only demonstrated by Maiar and very VERY powerful elves, the mod is currently sporting a number of magic-wielding humans. The main exemples would be Gulzar and Angmar's Sorcerers. True, they might have learned from the Witch King, but still...even Mornamath can turn his men into wraiths, all of them present on the map. And Mouth of Sauron has his fancy green lightning (he's numenorean, ok, but still). That's quite the magic show, and indirect only to a certain point.
With this I mean that perhaps the Elves demonstrating magic power, in particular tied to nature and the elements, might not really be THAT much out of place. My thoughts at least.

aminetude

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #55 am: 18. Feb 2016, 10:27 »
The main exemples would be Gulzar and Angmar's Sorcerers. True, they might have learned from the Witch King, but still...even Mornamath can turn his men into wraiths, all of them present on the map. And Mouth of Sauron has his fancy green lightning (he's numenorean, ok, but still). That's quite the magic show, and indirect only to a certain point.
Well sorry for this long paragraph, i just passed all the exams, and i am back and ready to share my toughts with everyone  ;)
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Feb 2016, 11:23 von aminetude »
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Walküre

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #56 am: 18. Feb 2016, 11:29 »
Well, Elven scholars with supportive abilities could be an interesting idea, and a reasonable compromise, I would say.
So, yes, my 'cruelty' might find rest with this concept  xD

About Magic, there are pages and pages that could be written about this fundamental theme.
But, since this is not the Lore Corner, I will try to be concise  :)

In a very strict lore perspective, the kind of usage of Magic that you, Spacetyrant, referred to (impressive manipulation of the Weather and of the elements, manipulation and alteration of the Life/Death cycle and other ones more) are definitely a prerogative of the Ainur, incredibly mighty Elves or powerful beings that acquired power in not so 'conventional' ways (often implying the effects of a corrupting and marring force).

Said that, the only ones – in the late Third Age – that seem to respect those characteristics are Sauron, Galadriel, Elrond, the Istari, the Balrog, the Witch-king and, probably, the Mouth of Sauron, even though the last is indeed covered a bit by an aura of mystery.
Both the Witch-king and the Mouth of Sauron are Human beings, but of a Númenórean descent, enhanced via any possible means by Sauron, especially by the action of the Rings of Power (I read that the Mouth of Sauron might wield one of the Seven Rings of the Dwarves, explaining thus his powers and inhuman longevity).
About Angmar, no, I don't think that single characters could have used Magic at that extent by themselves, without the guidance of their Master, who probably was the source of all their powers as Sauron is for Mordor.
But, I wouldn't question so much Angmar's solutions anyway, as we have to consider that this faction must necessarily count on fictional aspects rather than extremely lore-bound limits, because we are still talking about a game characterised by precise gameplay reasons.

Beside that, focusing solely on the Elven factions, about which one may rightly expect the iconic and very known display of Tolkien-ish Magic that the Elves are renowned for, the arguments above are more than legitimate, I believe.
Therefore, scholars with the ability of freely bending elements at their will shouldn't be theoretically acceptable, with all the respect for their original concept.
Only the Guardians of the Three and other Elven exceptions can legitimately be endowed with such magical properties, as we have knowledge of in the lore  8-)

Only the ultimate and mightiest heroes of a faction consequently and logically have the mightiest powers.
In my personal view, at least.

aminetude

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #57 am: 18. Feb 2016, 11:35 »
Greatly said Walkure  ;)
Such is the nature of evil, in time all foul things come forth.

Linhir

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #58 am: 18. Feb 2016, 12:26 »
Or... lightbringers could just be renamed and they could use some old world's artifacts? Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)

VectorMaximus

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Re: Imladris Siege
« Antwort #59 am: 18. Feb 2016, 14:20 »
I created a separate Lore page which contains all I know about the lesser rings, so we can have some background for the suggestions and any subsequent discussion of their usage. However, definitely keep on that track, it could make a very interesting discussion!

http://en.modding-union.com/index.php/topic,32695.0.html

However, onto the actual suggestion for the lightbringers 'wielding' the lesser rings (Magic Rings, as Linhir called them).
Remember when Gandalf said to Bilbo that "There are many magic rings in this world, Bilbo Baggins, and none of them should be used lightly."? They could just wield some of them that have most destructive powers. ;)
In my opinion this would be the closest they could actually get in a lore-friendly way to wielding elemental powers, but they would have to be few in number due to a limited number of lesser rings, of which only a few are held by the free people (if any!) by the War of the Ring.

However, on a separate note, I fully support the Lightbringers as scholarly support characters, and I can go either for or against their old role.

Btw Walk, you should just make a page in the Lore section that's "On Magic in Tolkien's World", then you can just redirect people there whenever they use Magic (Power magic that is; enchanting blades and artifacts is still within the possibility of the Elves in the 3rd age, correct? Lorien cloaks, for example) incorrectly, rather then having to retype it out in a billion threads, which you seem to have done at this point. :D
« Letzte Änderung: 18. Feb 2016, 14:35 von VectorMaximus »
"But wherefore should Middle-earth remain for ever desolate and dark, whereas the Elves could make it as fair as Eressëa, nay even as Valinor?