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Autor Thema: Murin Price Reduction  (Gelesen 4177 mal)

Elite KryPtik

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Murin Price Reduction
« am: 5. Mär 2016, 05:37 »
So, this is a relatively small topic and idea, but I hope to generate a reasonably large discussion, so therefore I made a separate thread from the brief discussions thread. If it turns out hardly anybody posts in this thread, mods can feel free to merge it with brief discussions.

So after extensive testing 1v1 on Fords of Isen II, I have noticed that Iron Hills suffer seriously early game, even though their guardians are, arguably, the most effective of the 3 at killing enemy units, and most suitable for spamming. The reason for this is against spam factions(Mordor, Rohan, Isengard) they have no heroes to counter a fast hero play. Now, there isn't really anything wrong or overpowered about a fast hero play in my view, the problem is just that all dwarven factions, but especially iron hills due to them not having a scout hero, have no decently strong heroes that cost 1k(I know about Drar, I will get to him in a minute).

Now, I do not think the other 2 dwarf factions have any heroes that need a price reduction. Their gameplay strength lies in late game, and therefore they are not ideal vs spam factions. Iron Hills is, in my opinion, the best counter to Rohan and Mordor due to their guardians, who can slaughter huge amounts of peasants and orcs with their charge.

 The problem is, Rohan will almost certainly get Gamling out as soon as possible, and Mordor players will often rush a nazgul for their currently excellent(overpowered IMO) trampling abilities. Isengard of course will rush Wulfgar to support their wildmen, and Wormtongue is also excellent once he has some levels. Murin CAN counter these, but his cost prohibits the dwarf player from getting him fast enough. Drar is a good hero, but he is not that strong vs other heroes. His strength lies in army killing with fire arrows, and I personally believe his abilities are much better late game than Murin. Murin is better stat-wise than Drar, but in terms of usefulness his first ability is arguably his best.

This is why I propose that Drar be made more expensive, and Murin reduced in cost. I would personally advocate his cost being reduced to 1k to give dwarves a chance against a fast hero play, but if that seems too low than 1200 could also work. He would be the strongest of the 1k heroes in terms of raw stats, but the least useful against army. To compare their uses, Gamling can summon free peasants, Beregond can use his summon on farms to excellent effect if played well, Grima is impossible to kill due to escape, and Wulfgar has a decent damage buff, but also provides great buffs to Wildmen. So Murin would sort of stand out as the hero to watch out for among the 1k heroes in terms of hero duels, but also the target to focus down with armies. This is why I don't think he would be OP in his current state, because you could simply avoid combat with heroes and focus him with your army, sneaking in a hit with your hero to gain the upper hand.

Feel free to leave your thoughts and experiences on this, but as far as I can tell the Dwarves are in a similar state to Elves right now, where Mordor can just overrun them before they can build enough of a force to resist. Lorien is already being looked at, so something should be done about dwarves too.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

H4lbarad

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #1 am: 5. Mär 2016, 09:46 »
I agree with you, but the problem is that 4.3 version will completely change the strenghts and weaknesses of each dwarven realms. So Iron Hills won't be the fast subfaction anymore, and they will probably get a new hero.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #2 am: 5. Mär 2016, 16:13 »
I have played the beta, and there is no new hero for Iron Hills to my knowledge. Plus, the basic pricing structure is still intact, which means that Dwarves getting overrun by Mordor isn't going to change.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

H4lbarad

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #3 am: 5. Mär 2016, 18:38 »
Oh ok, I didn't know.

But veterans can stop Mordor orcs spam very easily ;) If you can get them early in the game (which is not very hard, if you play good), you win ^^

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #4 am: 5. Mär 2016, 19:11 »
The travel camp costs 400 resources, and on top of that it takes 3 minutes for the first pony to spawn. Now, in order to get the actual veterans, you must spend 600 on a forge, 750 for the Elite Equipment upgrade, and another 500 on your elite unit to send them off with the ponies. That will get you a single veteran battalion. Mordor orc spam is free, and will destroy your travel camp before it even has a chance to spawn any ponies.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Fredius

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #5 am: 6. Mär 2016, 00:53 »
First of all Elite, this should be discussed within the internal forums and not here, since the fans haven't played with the new Dwarves like we did and have no clue on what kinds of changes have been made :P.

Also let's not spoil too much information about the new features; everything is still WIP and can change at a later point.

Walküre

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #6 am: 6. Mär 2016, 01:07 »
First of all Elite, this should be discussed within the internal forums and not here, since the fans haven't played with the new Dwarves like we did and have no clue on what kinds of changes have been made :P.

Also let's not spoil too much information about the new features; everything is still WIP and can change at a later point.

I agree with Fredius.
This discussion belongs legitimately to the internal forum, as that is the right and just place which was established exactly to allow the ones who have access to the Beta to discuss freely and exchange opinions about it.

The public suggestion boards of the forum are generally based on official and released material, especially specific matters like balance (that requires a defined and general overview of things)  :)

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #7 am: 6. Mär 2016, 01:15 »
I'm sorry, but where have I mentioned any details about the dwarf overhaul? This idea does not include anything from the new update, and I am quite sure that everybody is aware that the pricing of the units isn't going to change, because it doesn't need to.

The community at large can absolutely weigh in on this, because I'm not talking about any new changes, I am talking about an existing hero who is not being changed at all(except visually) with the new update.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #8 am: 6. Mär 2016, 01:36 »
This idea does not include anything from the new update, and I am quite sure that everybody is aware that the pricing of the units isn't going to change, because it doesn't need to.

How can you be completely sure about this?
Sorry, but this seems to be more an opinion of yours about how things should/will be according to your idea of something needing or not to be changed.
It's a legitimate opinion, obviously, and you could be perfectly right, but the problem is that neither you nor me can know exactly how things will be in the new Beta.
And, the fact that a new Beta is going to arrive soon places us in an even more 'unsure position', similarly to how common users don't know exactly what they can expect from the new patch.

Therefore, I don't think at all that talking about these matters is something useless, but I rather am a bit concerned with the fact that expecting the other users to imagine and picture in their mind things that they don't have access to yet could be a bit problematic for the sake of the discussion.
It's a bit of a gamble, since balance, in particular, is intertwined with various different general mechanics.

The internal forum exactly provides the Beta Testers the opportunity to discuss among themselves and the Edain Team itself.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #9 am: 6. Mär 2016, 02:05 »
Fair enough. I'm pretty much certain that even with the new changes to dwarves they would still be overrun easily by spam factions, but if you want to move this over to the beta forums until the beta is public you can feel free.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

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Re: Murin Price Reduction
« Antwort #10 am: 6. Mär 2016, 02:19 »
I think it would be better just closing this topic, for now.
If you want to address the Beta Testers, you could just write your initial post again in the general Beta thread concerning the 4.3 version.
I don't feel like moving anything of the public boards to the Beta boards.

Obviously, once the patch comes out officially, this thread will be unlocked in case you are willing to  :)

--- LOCKED ---