Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey improvements

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, this proposal is a little bit tuned down, I guess, but my points still stand and therefore I don't really agree with this concept. Its still a huge buff which would be essential for Gondor's theoretical strength and it would appear ludicrously late in the game seemingly out of nowhere (and having "Final Stand" before the ghosts would be an anachronism), which is not the thing usually described as a small buff or "nice to have"-addition (except of course the reincluded fiefdoms ).

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[Adrigabbro]

But I agree with Adrigabbro.  Aragorn is already one of most useful heroes in the game.  I would say that Gandalf does need more attention right now, but I'll be honest, I can't really think of something that will fix the problem with Gandalf.  His High Risk/High Reward play style was something I would say he always had, so maybe it really isn't problem.

Well, I know it is controversial, but I've always thought than Gandalf, especially when he is The White, should have some kind of leadership, so that he would still be usefull even when he retreats in the middle of your army. I know he got that leadership from the ring of fire and the latter is carried by Cirdan in Edain, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied by the absence of leadership.
The first concern would be : what leadership could he use, since Gondor is already full of different leaderships ? And wouldn't it be too overpowered? Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership. To balance it, Faramir leadership could be turned down, and in the same time the Ranger camp could be cheaper, so that buying Faramir is still a thing (it would give more credits to Rangers by the way, they are rarely used).
The second concern is: Gandalf already got 5 abilities, most of very iconic. Well, it may be a matter of preference, but I think he doesn't really need the light ray that much. I can very well see a leadership replacing this ability.

Tell me what you think please.

[Melkor Bauglir]

Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership.

If I am not misaken, this is impossible for technical reasons.
(The thing that nullifies the leaderships is something called an "Anti-Category" which is present in the Nazgûls' debuffs. Edit: Correctly speaking it is an entry inside their .ini which is an additional description of their aura, but I guess this is just for the one's really interested in this^^ *Edit end* Now all leaderships carry the line "IgnoreIfAntiCategoryActi ve = Yes" which results in them being shut down once the unit also suffers from an AntiCategory. I have zero idea what happens, when you add the same line to the Nazgûls' debuffs, but even if it would nullify their debuffs (which I am not certain, it will) it is still a regular AntiCategory, meaning all friendly leadership should be gone as well. Again, one needs to test this a little more in depth, but I am pretty sure it won't work as intended. Sorry.)

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

PS: From a technical point of view, you never have to sacrifice a button for a passive ability. Practically everytime this is usefull (in that complex passive abilities require a certain explaining) or serves the balance (in that a leadership is of course an ability, meaning it should cost a slot), but the slot in itself is EVERYTIMES not necessary. If it's just for really small buffs (like Gloin being able (still?) to attack fortresses or Zaphragor healing really fast), this can just as well be done via their recruting text or somewhere else.
Therefore, if Gandalf the White would, say disable fear effects / make nearby allies resistant to fear, this wouldn't take away a slot, it could just be mentionend in the spellbook power. I don't really know, what the Team thinks about this, but since there are certain effects (enemies fearing Sauron and Nazgûl, the leadership of Gandalf the Blessed (definitely the wrong name, only know the german word right now; I'm talking about his bright Ring form ), ...) that do not appear directly inside the hero's palantir, this might be an option.

[DrHouse93]

The idea of yours, in my understanding, is to give Aragorn the role of leader instead of lone warrior while he is mounted, right?

Exactly.

@Melkor, the problem is that, ironically, Aragorn from level 7 and forth is not so efficient in hero killing as he is at lower levels. When he becomes Aragorn the Heir, he loses the Knife Throw, which, together with his impressive damage, is what makes him (and Celeborn and Eowyn as well) an awesome hero killer: the capability of dealing heavy damage to an hero even if he's running away. At its place, he gains Brego, which is a useful ability, sure, but I think that throwing a knife at an enemy is more efficient than chasing him rushing inside enemy troops, and I really can't see Aragorn at level 7 used as a scout with Brego. Also, the Elendil/Demand of the King abilities aren't so useful in late game: when you have higher levels heroes and units upgrades, they can deal a lot of damage to Aragorn before he's able to cast one of the two skills (since the casting time is quite long). Furthermore, Demand of the King won't certainly kill an escaping enemy hero, and as Elite Kryptic said, it's kinda repetitive, since Gondor has already access to the Army of the Dead through the spellbook.

That's why I'd like to give to Aragorn a dual role on higher levels: when mounted he becomes a little more tank and supporter (therefore making his Brego ability more useful and giving Aragorn more useful skills), but when on foot he keeps his menacing hero killing skills. Of course, to balance this out, Faramir's and Dol Amroth soldiers leadership could be slightly debuffed, but I'd prefer not, because there are even more powerful things in the mod right now (e.g. all the Mordor debuffs combined with their huge numbers can make it almost impossible to defeat it. The same applies with a fully upgraded army of Dwarves with Thorin's leadership and a lot of Khazad-dum Veterans. Not to mention Nenya's Invulnerability, the Star of Ealendil or the Enchanted River, which can decide battles when combined with Silverthorne arrows)

[Hamanathnath]

Well, I know it is controversial, but I've always thought than Gandalf, especially when he is The White, should have some kind of leadership, so that he would still be usefull even when he retreats in the middle of your army. I know he got that leadership from the ring of fire and the latter is carried by Cirdan in Edain, but I can't help feeling unsatisfied by the absence of leadership.
The first concern would be : what leadership could he use, since Gondor is already full of different leaderships ? And wouldn't it be too overpowered? Well, there is one leadership that is currently not in Edain yet and that is the embodyment of Gandalf the White, in my opinion: a debuff nullifyer, i.e. all enemy debuffs around Gandalf the White are nullifyied. It would be kind of a reverse Nazgul leadership. To balance it, Faramir leadership could be turned down, and in the same time the Ranger camp could be cheaper, so that buying Faramir is still a thing (it would give more credits to Rangers by the way, they are rarely used).
The second concern is: Gandalf already got 5 abilities, most of very iconic. Well, it may be a matter of preference, but I think he doesn't really need the light ray that much. I can very well see a leadership replacing this ability.

Tell me what you think please.

I don't know if you ever have played the first Battle for Middle Earth game, but Gandalf used to have a very powerful leadership, but was cut from Battle for Middle Earth 2 (replaced by the ability to change stances). 
As for the suggestion, I am totally for Gandalf having a leadership.  A Debuff Nullifier would be interesting, but I would suggestion just making Allies fearless, which I think would fit Gandalf's role in the Movies (and I'd assume the books). 
What ability would be removed for this leadership?  None.  My suggestion would be to put it as an extra benefit on the Spellbook Power, Gandalf the White.  This would allow Gandalf to keep all his abilities, and I don't think not allowing Gandalf the Grey to have the Leadership is bad. 

[Melkor Bauglir]

@DrHouse93:
I'm afraid, you didn't really get my point. It is not about the fear of making Gondor too strong and I definitely understand the idea of giving Aragorn a more supportive nature (at least on later levels), since he is basically the free people's greatest hope and their prime leader once he acts as Gondor's king.
My problem I have which this is solely the fact that these abilities would come extremely late while being extraordinarily powerfull. Not this sounds like a dumb thing to say since spells like Word of Power are pretty strong and come pretty late -that's again not my point. However, spell's like WoP don't come out of nowhere: Gandalf is a mass-slayer directly from the start, as much as Galadriel has a supportive nature, therefore ultimately justifying her final ability. Aragorn however starts (and stays long times!) which no attributes resembling those of a support and technically he only deserves this from level 7 onwards.
I guess, I'll repeat my Thorin example: The problem is that Gondor's gameplay is severely changed after a discrete point in time which is not at all guaranteed to happen at all in an ordinary game. For example, Boromir's and Faramir's leaderships are fairly reliable because you're given access to them pretty fast. Owning a level 10 Aragorn is nothing easily achieved, yet it would give Gondor a hefty buff.
This is just bad gameplay-design, because it's basically the famous "reach point A to win the game" and in this case it's a point which really comes out of nowhere.

Let's make a counterexample to make this clearer: Suppose Aragorn would be a hero-killer- / support-hybrid from level 1 (not just Athelas^^). If both these roles got gradually stronger, I wouldn't see something negative about it. Since this isn't the case, the points mentioned above do apply.

Greetings
Melkor Bauglir

[DrHouse93]

Ok, now I get it^^

Personally, I see no problem on changing Aragorn's role later on, but I think that a nice mechanic to correctly show the "lone-but-heroes-and-later-units-supporter-warrior" nature of Aragorn can be found

I'll think about it^^

What do you rather think about my Gandalf "hero submod" concept?

[Elite KryPtik]

Melkor Bauglir, your talking about Reach Point A to win, I'm afraid that is already present for most factions in the game independently of heroes. Once you have upgraded tower guards as Gondor, you have won. As Isengard, once you have upgraded uruk hai with captains and shieldbearers, you've won. As Dwarves, once you have Veterans of Khazad Dum and heroes with mithril, you've won. As Lorien, once you have Galadhrim with silverthorns, you've won. As Mordor, once you have Minas Morgul/Dol Guldur and call the horde, you've won. Do you see my point here? That's not even taking heroes into account at all. I do not understand your reasoning at all. Aragorn's current role ALREADY changes once he levels up, he just doesn't have many useful abilities for his supporting role. Even his heal skill isn't working properly, its supposed to heal all nearby units and heroes, but only affects heroes. We are just trying to get him an ability to actually make him useful as a unit supporter at level 10. Now, I do not agree with giving him a passive leadership, but I see no issue with an ability which buffs units for a set time and then has to recharge.

For my part, I totally agree with having Gandalf the White nullify debuffs if it can be accomplished in the engine.

[Hamanathnath]

@DrHouse93:  I don't agree with many of the changes in your concept for Aragorn and Gandalf the Grey.

Aragorn:  Now I like your concept for Final Stand, though I think that adding it to just the Mount Form of Aragorn is a bit odd.  I know your are going for Unmounted Aragorn to be a Hero Killer, and Mounted to be a Supportive Hero, but still, Aragorn is already argueably the best hero killer in the game, so giving him Knife Throw Unmounted might be a little too much.  Another problem is that if you keep it Final Stand as Mounted only, the player can just use it, and then switch back Unmounted, where he will have access to both Anduril AND Knife Throw.  This would make him way too powerful in my opinion.

Glory of the Dunedain also seems like an ability that is not really needed.    Gondor has enough leaderships for their units, as well as Beregond's leadership for heroes, and if Final Stand is added along with this Ability, it will be too much.  If you want Aragorn to be more supportive while Mounted, he should keep his Elendil ability on his horse.  And if you don't think that's enough, maybe adding a debuff to Enemy Heroes to Elendil would be interesting, showing that they too also fear that ability, but not to the point where they will run away.

I will finish this post later, talking about Gandalf the Grey.  Ran out of time

[DrHouse93]

Just wait a little. I'm modifying my main post for an improved version of Aragorn, who will have supportive skills from the beginning^^

EDIT: I've changed the main post, so it's more easy to read^^

[Saeros]

Since there is so much talk about Aragorn, I'll make my proposal too..
In the Arnor faction there is a hero recruitablr from the ranger tent (can't remember his name now sorry).
The player gets to decide what his path will be followed, the ranger, or the king path.
Why not apply this to Aragorn also?
The ranger path will contribute mainly in his hero- killer role, with a supportive ability and the king path will contribute mainly in his supprotive role, with Anduril (his most iconic ability)
The abilities of each path should be as DrHouse93 had in mind and presented, with some small changes , because as I stated before some of them althogh not so OP in first place, if they will stack with the rest awsome leaderships of Gondor will make it invincible.

P.S leave Faramir alone he is one of my fav characters, don't mess with him 

[Hamanathnath]

I was going to edit my original post, but this post will be very long and I don't want to add an edit that's longer then the post itself.   

Gandalf the Grey:  I am against the changes presented for Gandalf.  I find Battle of the Maiar to be a very cool concept, but extremely not gameplay friendly.  What I mean by that is to get Gandalf the White, you gotta get Gandalf away from enemies, and fight a Battle that will most likely talk all your attention.  The enemy could use this opportunity to attack your other forces or your base, and they will have the advantage because your focused on Gandalf and the Balrog.  And if you take your focus away from them to deal with your enemy, there is a chance Gandalf is killed by the Balrog.  Over all, this would be way too complicated to handle.  As cool as seeing an ability like this would be, it would just be too much for the Gondor player to do.  And even if you do win, Gandalf dies and you have to wait for him to come back, which put you at a disadvantage of not having Gandalf available for a long time.

I would like to see Gandalf the White to have some sort of Leadership with Fear Resistance or a Debuff Nullifier, but other than that, I would say Gandalf is fine.

Aragorn 1.2: I do like the changes to better then the other, but I still have some concerns.  The main one is that Aragorn having that sort of Leadership would make Gondor too powerful.  Boromir is the only one that can give units a bonus of Armour.  Denethor's Promotion also give the groups of the improved banner carriers more Armour.  And if you think that is still not that much, you must realize that Tower Guards already are insanely hard to kill once they are upgraded.  Making Aragorn that leadership would make Tower Guards pretty much Unkillable.  And that's not even taking into consideration that Final Stand will make them also incredibly strong.  It's just too much.

I do like Charge, but I don't exactly know why it isn't just added in with Final Stand.  There isn't a reason not to use it with Final Stand, so adding them together would just make it more convenient.  And I think that Final Stand should also be able to be used Unmounted, and Elendil should be a mounted skill.  The reason for this is that Aragorn yelling Elendil would most likely take more of an effect if he is higher up, becuase the enemy would be able to see it better, and would be able to realize that Aragorn wields Anduril. 

I do like the ability Decapitation, though the passive buff to Aragorn seems kinda pointless.  But I do think that maybe, if Decapitation kills the target, nearby enemies would be likely to cower, showing that they are in fear of how their hero was killed.

I do like how much effort you put into thinking about this topic. 

[Elite KryPtik]

I am still completely against any changes to Gandalf, his abilities are far too iconic. The only acceptable one in my view is that he receives a nazgul debuff nullifier without an ability if it can be done in game. I would like to point out that Gandalf has a leadership in bfme2 that doesn't have a button, you can see units light up when you walk him near them, here is the information.
http://www.gamereplays.org/battleformiddleearth21.08/portals.php?show=index&name=men-unit-info-angelsfan&tab=7261360

As for Aragorn, I like your concept, but the problem here is that the abilities are so insanely powerful. As has been said, Gondor already has 2 leaderships from Boromir and Faramir, adding Aragorn on top of those 2 passive will make your army unkillable unless its debuffed, and it just isn't necessary for Aragorn to have a passive leadership. For Final Stand, its far too strong of an ability, and basically a copy of Thorin Oakenshields Gleam of the Arkenstone. Making all nearby heroes invulnerable in addition to those unit buffs is stupidly strong for a single ability.

I just don't think he needs a complete overhaul, that's asking for far too much from the team and its very unlikely to happen in my view. Just a couple changes, like replacing Demand of the King with a final stand type ability, or letting him use it 1 time and then replacing it, and maybe making the passive at level 10 a little bit better by allowing units of the fiefdoms to be recruited at the barracks or something, without making it a direct leadership.

[Hamanathnath]

I just don't think he needs a complete overhaul, that's asking for far too much from the team and its very unlikely to happen in my view. Just a couple changes, like replacing Demand of the King with a final stand type ability, or letting him use it 1 time and then replacing it, and maybe making the passive at level 10 a little bit better by allowing units of the fiefdoms to be recruited at the barracks or something, without making it a direct leadership.

Yeah, just to clarify, if the team were to leave Aragorn the way he is right now, It would be perfectly fine.  He is already a very useful hero.  If there is one change I would want, it would be making Demand of the King a 1 time use, and replace it with a "Final Stand" ability.  But I do like Aragorn the way he is now. 

[DrHouse93]

I have to disagree with you, guys. Aragorn is certainly a useful hero, but he becomes less powerful and efficient at level 7, when he becomes the Heir. I mean, as much as I like his Brego ability, what is its purpose? Even compared to other hero killers, Celeborn at level 7 gains the Squall ability, which protects him by arrows and nearby enemy units, Eowyn gains the Shieldmaiden ability, which decreases the damage taken by heroes and even more the damage taken by enemy units. What about Aragorn? He gains a mount ._.
So, while I'd not wish to see his Brego skill gone, I think it must be atleast more useful than granting Aragorn more speed movement. Furthermore, I think that his role as a leader and only hope for the survival of Men isn't shown at its best

That's why I'd like to see it changed a little. From a technical point of view, his leadership will just give a small armor boost, which, combined with Boromir's one, is still inferior to  the damage boost granted by Faramir + Dol Amroth soldiers (+75% damage against +63% armor) and will mainly affect units not bulky enough (such as Dol Amroth soldiers). It's true that Tower Guards will be much more resilient, but right now there are a lot of ways to counter them (Freezing Rain, all the Mordor debuffs, or even heavily armored Uruk-Swordsmen with the sword upgrade from the Steelwork and buffed by Lurtz. Not to mention the Dwarves elite units)

Finally, the Final Stand ability will give yes a powerful boost, but just for 20 seconds (I was inspired by Theoden's Glorious Charge for the effects). Furthermore, Aragorn's hero killing skills are disabled during the effect and will have to reload when it ends (forgot to mention that in the main post, I will fix it). This will make the player to choose: does he need a powerful but temporary boost for his troops, or does he need Aragorn at his full potential?

On the other hand, I agree with you about the Demand of the King ability. I think it's a bit repetitive, since Ghosts are already present on the spellbook