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Autor Thema: Angmar Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 42785 mal)

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #45 am: 6. Mai 2016, 13:17 »
+1 to you, good sir.
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Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #46 am: 6. Mai 2016, 13:49 »
I think people is worried about how good is him as mass slayer and comparing him with other mass slayers ( Saruman, gandalf, Gimli..) and supposed ones ( Murin, Eomer..) he is way better than them and also has a secondary role as heroslayer thx to his great dmg with low health. I think Wizards shopuld be much more tanky, as well Gimli and Murin/Eomer get some abilities to be at his lvl. Increase the usefullness of Mass slayers would be a good way to encourage players to use them.
The problem is if we buff Mass Slayers armor, then they will pretty much become better Tanks.  Zafragor is incredibly overpowered right now because he can fulfill the Role of Tank, Mass Slayer, and Hero Killer at the same time.  There is a serious problem when Zafragor can beat out pretty much any other hero, as well as take forever to kill, even when Hero Killers are attacking him.

And people use pretty much all of these heroes.  Gimli, Murin, Dwalin, Zafragor, and too a lesser extent Legolas, Eomer, and Saruman are usually bought by most players.  The only ones I rarely see are Gandalf and Mollock, and this is because these 2 are such a big risk to lose that people don't bother.  I didn't include Saruman because at least he has his Wizard's Tower.  And both Mollock and Gandalf have had plenty of feedback on how they can be more worth the risk you take to get them.


Elite KryPtik

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #47 am: 6. Mai 2016, 16:42 »
Yes, the problem rests sole on the shoulders of Zaphragor and the way he is set up. Honestly, considering how huge the hero roster of Angmar already is, it may be a good idea to just remove him. (BURN THE HERETIC FOR SUGGESTING WE REMOVE ANGMARS COOLEST HERO!) Wait! Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh, a great tank, Karsh/Witch King, and 2 great mass slayers, Helegwen and Witch King. Most of their heroes also have overlapping roles. I think rather than nerfing Zaphragor into oblivion it may just be better and more efficient to remove him.

I think the only way to properly fix the problems centered around Zaphragor while keeping him in the game would be to either completely overhaul his entire ability set, or to make him an optional "leader" type hero, alongside the Witch King. So, you can either make him or the Witch King, but not have both on the field at the same time. This would solve the problem of him (significantly) overshadowing the Witch King as an all round better hero.
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-DJANGO-

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #48 am: 6. Mai 2016, 16:48 »
Agree with Haman. I dont see any reason to buff the Armor of Mass Slayer Heros.
Gandalf and Saruman have once lvled slightly up with their first magic attacks they have a good amor. It is really not difficult to lvl them up to 10.
Regarding Zaphragor: In the following im gone make me a lot of enemies and im already sry for the people who out their work&time in this hero, but its my opinion. Zaphragor is the Hero i hate the most in Edain. Yes his mechanism is cool but thats the only think i like of him. His Position, Role and Design dont fit into the Tolkien-Angmar. With his abilities he outshines the Witchking enormously. Say so: Zaphragor is the Gandalf of Angmar. The attack mechanism of his first ability is also different than the magic blasts of the Saruma&Gandalf. It deals damage to the hole surrounding of the hero, not only infront of him. That makes the attack better than magic blasts, its like a small "word of power" :P.
Now like Haman said his nice mechanism to get stronger melee when dying puts him into more Hero positions than just a mass slayer. That double role of Angmar Heros, not only Zaphragor, is a serious problem in my eyes.
Last but not least the cooldowns of his abilities are a joke.

My opinion is to cancel this hero, Angmar does not need a mass slayer Hero like Zaphragor, they already got the Witchking with Mass-Slayer Attack Moves, they got wraiths, they got Werewolves, they got Witchers
Instead: rework the Witchking of Angmar and give him an extraordinary Role in his faction: Keep his Mass-Slayer Attack Moves, give him some outstanding lvl. 10 Ability: Should not necessarily be the "Word of Power of Angmar" from Zaphragor. Maybe something "Tolkienish": Remember maybe the at the battle of Fornost, the scene with Earnur and his horse. Yes Glorfindel banished him, but what about an ability with special effects against Mankind? That would emphasize the history of both factions, especially summoned in such an important figure.
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Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #49 am: 6. Mai 2016, 16:59 »
Yes, the problem rests sole on the shoulders of Zaphragor and the way he is set up. Honestly, considering how huge the hero roster of Angmar already is, it may be a good idea to just remove him. (BURN THE HERETIC FOR SUGGESTING WE REMOVE ANGMARS COOLEST HERO!) Wait! Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh, a great tank, Karsh/Witch King, and 2 great mass slayers, Helegwen and Witch King. Most of their heroes also have overlapping roles. I think rather than nerfing Zaphragor into oblivion it may just be better and more efficient to remove him.

I think the only way to properly fix the problems centered around Zaphragor while keeping him in the game would be to either completely overhaul his entire ability set, or to make him an optional "leader" type hero, alongside the Witch King. So, you can either make him or the Witch King, but not have both on the field at the same time. This would solve the problem of him (significantly) overshadowing the Witch King as an all round better hero.
Or his armor could just be lowered to that of normal heroes.....

That is really all that needs to happen because his Damage Output is fine, at least in my opinion.  The reason why he is also a great Hero Killer and Tank right now is because of his armor.  His abilities also might need to be a bit longer.

@-DJANGO-: I think that balancing him before we say that he needs to be removed would be a better idea.  With the Lower Armor and Increased Cooldowns, I think that he will be a lot more fair of a Hero, as well as give more purpose for the Witch-King.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #50 am: 6. Mai 2016, 17:02 »
As pointed out before, Zaphragor is seeing some substantial nerfs in the next version. LoM said it like ten posts above this one, but still, just putting it out there in case someone forgot already :P
So yeah, what Haman said. Wait for his nerf and then come back to this^^

Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh[...]
Wait, wut? Karsh a great hero killer? Are we still talking about the current Edain version?

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #51 am: 6. Mai 2016, 17:05 »
His Life Steal makes him able to 1v1 a LOT of heroes, even if he doesn't necessarily have the best hero killer moveset. He doubles as a hero killer, his main I think is a unit debuffer.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #52 am: 6. Mai 2016, 17:08 »
Think about it, Angmar already has 2 great hero killers, Durmarth and Karsh[...]
Wait, wut? Karsh a great hero killer? Are we still talking about the current Edain version?
Well if you want to be picky, Karsh's Life Steal does generally make him out last heroes that aren't Hero Killers..... So if you want to count that  xD

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #53 am: 6. Mai 2016, 17:43 »
He's a tank/wraith-supporter mostly. With his high HP and lifesteal he might be able to outlast other heroes but it still takes him foreeever to do so unlike Gorthaur/Aragorn, who are truly great hero killers... but hey, whatever floats your boat I guess^^

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #54 am: 6. Mai 2016, 19:29 »
When we are talking about buffing Mass Slayers, we aren't necessarily talking about buffing their armour. Either their health could be buffed, or their offensive power. Most Mass Slayers lose a lot of power and momentum once armies start being upgraded. The way I see it is that Mass Slayers should be weak to sub-heroes and heroes only. Mass Slayers cost a fortune and a good amount of games will have already ended before you even see these expensive heroes, unless you are talking about 2v2 and up. The point still remains, most of these Mass Slayers still lose against cavalry and trolls, werewolves, even though they count as units, and not heroes. While I understand that a counter is important, I think it is very hard to justify that a single battalion of Axe Rohirrim (400) can absolutely molest Saruman (3000) if you even make a single mistake.
Mass Slayers should always be lategame heroes imo, and their effectiveness against upgraded blobs needs to be increased. Mostly their abilities are fine, they just lack in strength. A Word of Power can only one shot kill default orcs if I am not mistaken. It only takes a sliver of health of upgraded units like Tower Guards and Men of Carn-Dûm, which I find strange. Maybe there is a way to grant magic abilities bonus damage modifiers against heavily armoured foes and such.

We should of course not go the one shot-one kill route, but currently these abilities are too weak in their mass slaying capabilities, and I would love to see some buffs across the board, just like with Eomer's spear throw, just straight buffs.
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Draco100000

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #55 am: 6. Mai 2016, 22:25 »
I just said to buff the mass slayers because right now i find their role in general useless. They are good vs mordor and just that. Dwarves, elves and other factions hace much better troops with better armour and dmg. I think the armour of mass slayers should be increased vs troops while being the same or lowered vs heros, fiting much more at their role.

Vodohaka

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #56 am: 6. Mai 2016, 22:44 »
I agree with you on the topic of buffing mass slayers. I can understand that the Edain team is cautious with a buff because they might be too strong against not upgraded troops. But they really need a higher damage output in the lategadme. Especially against the means of upgraded tower guards and so on.
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Skeeverboy

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #57 am: 6. Mai 2016, 22:53 »
At the moment heroes who do "Magic" damage have a bug, that their "Magic" damage won't be higher when they level up. If I'm not wrong, it will be fixed next version so they would be stronger against upgradet units.

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #58 am: 6. Mai 2016, 23:03 »
@Skeever
That sounds really good. I suppose we derailed the topic a bit, but yes, I look forward to that.
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Adrigabbro

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #59 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:49 »
Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.


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