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Autor Thema: Angmar Balance Discussion  (Gelesen 42835 mal)

Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #60 am: 10. Mai 2016, 16:55 »
Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.
+1

Though I think the Summon Area should be smaller then it is now.  It is pretty big for a Tier 2 Spell Book Summon.

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #61 am: 10. Mai 2016, 17:04 »
Zitat
Could you change the Orcs of Mount Gram summon so that they can NOT be summoned right on top of enemy units, just like every other summon in the game? Last game I lost three troops of upgraded Lorien Archers because of that ; they were stuck in the middle of Orcs without any way out.
So much this. Also, please do it for the Troll Summon as well.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #62 am: 16. Mai 2016, 16:01 »
Think it's time we discuss something that really hasn't been talked about much: Wights

These guys are incredibly effective for their price.  Once the Wight building gets to level 5, these things become beasts.  But here is my main problem with them.  Their melee armor is very high, and along with their life steal, they can deal a lot of damage and take a lot of punishment before dieing. Their main counters are Heroes and Archers, but like how Beornings were in the early stages of Lothlorien, for a price of 350, they can massively overperform against certain factions (Mordor), and can also be discounted.  And the things that do counter Wights can be ripped to shreds by Werewolves. 

Because of the new amount of experience that is required to get a level 3 Recruitment building, Men of Carn Dum are seem to be much less useful.  The reason for this is if you go for Men of Carn Dum, buying a Dark Iron Forge is necessary, while going for Just wights and Werewolves requires a lot less tribute Carts.  And because of how hard it is too kill wights, against certain factions, you only need Wights and Werewolves.     

So I would suggest  both Werewolves and Wights cost 100 more each, and the Armor value of Wights go down.  In my opinion, Wights should be used within your army or Thralls/Men of Carn Dum, more similarly to Isengard Berserkers, and not as your Front line by themselves. 
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Mai 2016, 16:35 von Hamanathnath »

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #63 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:10 »
Definitely agree, but with some different points.

I will be posting a video to YouTube tomorrow, I will link back to it here when its up. In this video, after one of our teammates crashes me and my other teammate hold off in a 3v2 for almost an hour just by pure virtue of my wight army. Its literally like a tide of death, I clean out 3 bases and destroy multiple huge armies with just my wights alone. They SERIOUSLY need to be looked at. My personal suggestion is a cost increase from 350 to 500 default, and then the discount can be applied from there. Additionally, I think the Wight Lair should take a lot longer to level up than it currently does, a single engagement can take a wight lair from 1 to 3. Finally, I think they should also have a bit of a health nerf, right now they are very tanky just on their own without taking the lifesteal into account.

Regarding werewolves, I think they perform excellently in terms of overall power, but I think they are a bit cheap as well. They only cost 630 if you go for their full discount. So I would argue to increase their price a bit, maybe to something like 800 with the full discount. That's just enough to prevent them from being super spammable, while keeping them a really useful unit.

Finally, we come to Men of Carn Dum. They are, as of now, COMPLETELY USELESS. Paying 500 for elite units that have a hard time against even basic swordsmen, and 600 for pikes and archers, is completely untenable and impossible to maintain, even late game. You also need to upgrade them before they reach their full potential, in addition to their incredible price. I understand the idea is to have them beat elite units of other factions with similar costs, but if your enemy goes for Men of Carn Dum all you have to do is spam your most basic unit and shred them. This is especially true with Isengard and the HUGE discount they can get on their heavy uruks. I think the pikes and swords each need a flat discount of 100 each, and Mornamarth should get his discount for the Men of Carn Dum at level 2. I guarantee that right now, with all the changes he has gotten, he is a super low priority hero for people, but if you change his ability to unlock easier he will become useful again.

Finally, a last point I just came up with. I don't understand why you increased the cost of the basic outpost to 1600. I think that's really unfair, every other factions outpost equivalent costs 1200. I think instead of increasing the cost of the basic outpost, you should increase the cost of the upgrades for it, Garrison Tower and Tower of Sorcery. Taking Garrison Tower from 500 to 1k would be fine in my opinion, and similarly for Tower of Sorcery(I never use sorcerers so I don't know the price :P) The 1600 cost can really hurt Angmar in terms of claiming an outpost quickly, where other factions have access to it for much cheaper. Hell, even the freaking dwarves basic outpost, with its incredible defenses, only costs 1200. I think that this should be reconsidered, I don't understand why it was even changed in the first place.
Thanks for reading :)
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Mai 2016, 19:14 von Elite KryPtik »
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Adrigabbro

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #64 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:25 »
+1 for the outpost thing.


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Skeeverboy

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #65 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:32 »
Zitat
I don't understand why you increased the cost of the basic outpost to 1600.
This change was because the outpost spawns instantly a tribute cart, which gives 500 ressources and has the leveling strength of two normal carts.

Adrigabbro

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #66 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:40 »
Still, you now have to save more money than other factions to get an outpost and I agree with Kryptik, this is a bit unfair. His proposal is a very good alternative in my opinion.

Other than that, I think you are over reacting. I have tried Wights once back in 4.3.1 and I felt more like they were a waste of money compared to Angmar's other alternatives such as werewolves (who are indeed quite strong, I pointed it out on this very topic). But perhaps it was because I was mainly facing Rohan's hero rush and Wights have bad time against heroes.
Concerning Men of Carn Dum, they sure got nerfed but I don't think they are that useless. Time will tell.


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #67 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:44 »
Wanna 1v1 me, Angmar vs Mordor? I can show you firsthand how good wights are and how useless men of carn dum are.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #68 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:45 »
@Elite
I don't understand why suddenly Men of Carn-Dum are useless. Nothing was changed about them. They are identical to the previous versions. Only the Pikemen reflect damage on less sources with their passive and Mornamarth's price reduction has been lowered. So not sure what you are saying.

I would be okay with a small 100 cost increase for Wights, similar to Beornings and decrease their armour and health by a tiny bit, like 5-10%. I would also agree that the Barrow Wight Lair could take more time to level. To compensate, Karsh could have a passive leadership at level 6-7 for Wights that increases armour again, and perhaps the rate at which the barrow wight lair levels and that barrow wight lairs share levels, instead of barrow wights themselves near a Karsh summoned tunnel. Just some thoughts on the subject. Price increase for Werewolves should be pretty fair too I guess.

Skeeverboy makes a fair point though. Agree to that. I don't really mind if the Outpost would cost 1200, and the upgrades for it would be more epxensive. It almost amounts to the same thing anyway.
« Letzte Änderung: 16. Mai 2016, 19:48 von Odysseus »
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Vodohaka

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #69 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:46 »

+1

I agree with Elite KryPtik that all standard outposts should cost 1200. If you want to weaken Angmars outposts you could do this by increasing the upgrade costs as suggested. I can understand that the cart spanning immediate is seen as a problem. Still Angmars outpost no longer produces ressources and the cart should be see as compensation for those resources.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #70 am: 16. Mai 2016, 19:48 »
They are useless now because of how long it takes the barracks to level up, and because of how much more cost effective it is now to go for wolves immediately, due to wolf breeding being at level 1 on the pit. The problem is their cost, as I said, its impossible to build a reliable army of them now. The reason they were usable before is cus of the tribute cart bug, where people were getting a lot more money, and the other things that made Angmar OP. Now that they have been balanced properly, things that worked before aren't working enarly as well now. Even going full double resources on all of your inner resource buildings, you struggle to field an army of carn dum and keep them fielded, while also upgrading them. They are just too damn expensive.

In regards to the outpost, having the cart spawn for 500 would still be covered if you increased the costs of the outpost upgrades. Its really unfair for Angmar to have to save up an extra 400 just to get the outpost to begin with.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #71 am: 16. Mai 2016, 20:10 »
I agree with leaving the Outpost at 1200.  Because Buildings require more cart to level up, and you need to pay for its upgrades, the price increase seems unnecessary.

Don't underestimate Wights.  In groups they can do some serious damage without taking many losses.  I don't think they should be able to last as long as they do by themselves.  Their melee armour is just too much.  They aren't uncounted able, but they are certainly over performing for their price.




Draco100000

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #72 am: 16. Mai 2016, 22:47 »
After playing some matches with Angmar  and against Angmar I only see 1 thing which is a bit annoying ( at least for me).

Well Orcs of Mount gram still being the best summon of tier 2 in the game. Just because the high stats that this orcs have. They are in health like Dwarven Warriors, which I think is not fair if we compare them to grishnak boys, Tauriel or Beorn. They can be dangerous but not suppose an entire armie by themselves. Mount gram orcs have enough numbers and resistance to be a real thread in early stages, I think their spell should cost 3 points and should spawn only 3 hordes instead 4. Or reduce their stats a bit....

I use them in early to just destroy the entire enemie armie, and if my enemie have heros much better, they have no scape. In late they are a great meat wall, way better than standard free orcs. Their dmg is not low at all, they destroy siege andf kill lot of enemie archers easily, and can even flank in later stages being able to kill upgraded troops.

About Werewolves, I think their cost should be increased from 900 to 1200 Just because they are hero killers, building destroyers and mass slayers at a time.
I dont know their cp cost but if it is no 120 cp it should be.

Great changes overall in Angmar, I find too much the increased price for the outpost and the nerf on Monamarth ( I have no reasons to buy him more than third hero killer in lategame behind Durmath and Zaphragor). But the nerf on rogash is a great move, he still being really dangerous but 1 trol less makes easier to run from him at least.

Odysseus

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #73 am: 16. Mai 2016, 23:02 »
I agree mostly with what Draco said.
“For so sworn good or evil an oath may not be broken and it shall pursue oathkeeper and oathbreaker to the world's end.”

Hamanathnath

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Re: Angmar Balance Discussion
« Antwort #74 am: 19. Mai 2016, 13:46 »
Zafragor's Raging Anger kills himself when at Full Health.  This makes Raging Anger not worth using at all unless you are under 25% health and need to blast everyone away to run away. 

I know Zafragor needed the Armor Nerf, but the amount of damage these Abilities deal to himself should be modified to compensate for this nerf.  Even Devastating Strike deals a lot of damage to himself, while Raging Anger, for fairly obvious reasons, deals way too much damage to himself now.