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Autor Thema: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth  (Gelesen 6778 mal)

ziqing

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Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« am: 7. Apr 2016, 03:58 »
Can any experienced players talk a little about the role of Gondor Knights in Gondor faction, under what circumstance will you consider to use them(in PVP especially)? I cannot really find a place to fit them in.

Also concerning Dol Amroth units, I know they are elites, but what building orders will you use if you decide to recruit them in the game?


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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #1 am: 7. Apr 2016, 06:32 »
When it comes to me Gondor Knights are a great way to harass players. While your main army is fighting off the main army two battalions of knights (with forged blades and on aggressive stand) can be used to destroy enemy farms. They're also pretty good at trampling, Dol Amroth are an advanced version of that but I don't uses them much.
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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #2 am: 7. Apr 2016, 09:06 »
For me Gondor Knights come in against factions that are weak against cavalry. So, Mordor, Lorien early game, and Angmar early game. If I am up against the likes of Rohan, Gondor, Isengard or Dwarves, all oh whom have excellent cavalry counters, then I focus entirely on infantry. You can still use them for harassment, but considering the cost of the stables and knights, its really not worth it unless your doing an entirely cavalry focused army build.
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Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #3 am: 7. Apr 2016, 13:11 »
Isengard does have good pikes, but it takes them too long until they get there. Going for Knights vs Isengard in the early game wins you the match, unless you make some terrible mistakes. Isengard can not, under no circumstance, counter Knights until they have pikes - which means that, if used correctly, you'll have the entire map and even a considerable infantry army by the time he has the pikes to stop you from destroying every single external building and unit Isengard has. You should have one or even both outposts and siege (and the economy to get upgrades at the same time) if Isengard doesn't get Wargriders, but even if there are Wargriders, Knights just mop the floor with them. And this is all mostly talking about harassment, not even about their great trample and melee damage that allow you to pick off archers in bigger battles or finish off fleeing swords or completely wreck any isolated unit or hero, which takes so much mapcontrol off your opponent that it's just glorious for you. So yeah, not really sure what you're talking about there, Kryptik^^

You can make Knights work in pretty much every matchup. In my experience it's hardest to do against dwarves, followed by Gondor, but they still have their uses their as described above. If you get just two batallions of Knights, it forces your opponent to get at least four pikes, depending on the map, otherwise either his army or his flanks are unguarded. Having the initiative and forcing your opponent to react to what you're doing is a great thing in itself, but in this case it has the added benefit that pikes are more expensive than swords (ESPECIALLY useful against Mordor). And if he goes pikes only, he can't stop neither your infantry nor your heroes.

Now to Dol Amroth: I have to point out here that I go for the standard outpost nearly everytime. I just like the extra versatility and it gives me siege without having to demolish a building in my base. Anyway: Dol Amroth cavalry is pretty much the heroic version of Gondor Knights. Since I get Knights nearly all the time, I don't get the DA cavalry at all, because if the match isn't decided at that point my oppenent usually has enough pikes to counter my Knights, so those wouldn't make the difference.
The infantry is quite nice when you have a large standing infantry army. They are good swords themselves, but the leadership is the best thing about them, so three or four units are usually all I get to support my army.
« Letzte Änderung: 7. Apr 2016, 16:09 von Elendils Cousin 3. Grades »

ziqing

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #4 am: 7. Apr 2016, 16:00 »
Thank you for all your reply. One of the main concern I have for current Gondor faction is that the recruiting mechanism. For Dol Amorth Fortress, the starting price is 2000, I just would like to know how many experienced Gondor players will choose to use them(including Imrahil), and under what circumstance and against which faction they would be necessary.

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #5 am: 7. Apr 2016, 16:09 »
I personally like Dol Amroth and I use it quite often in 2v2/3v3 as a healing and holding point.But if you are ahead, it's better to go for a regular outpost and build siege. :)


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Elite KryPtik

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #6 am: 7. Apr 2016, 18:35 »
By the time you can get Knights, due to the stables price increase, Isengard can and should have at least 1 wildmen hut, and many wildmen and potentially Wulfgar. Which means that the Isengard player can very easily counter knights, if you try to engage him head on your knights will get stuck in his army, who can then tear you apart, and if you go for harassment he can very easily do the same thing to kill all of your outer settlements, making your knights even more expensive. I didn't want to make a huge post about all of this which is why I just stuck to their pikes are good.

Its very impolite to tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about when you haven't considered all the possibilities yourself. Wildmen and wargs at the start can counter Gondor knight rush very easily, while you quickly get 1k from creeping to get machinery of war and pikes.
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Hamanathnath

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #7 am: 7. Apr 2016, 19:15 »
I'm surprised that Angmar early game is weak to a Gondor Cavalry start.  I would imagine that, due to Angmar being able to Rhudaur Pikes right from the start, the could counter Cavalry easily.  Though I guess they don't have anything that can stop the Harassment of their settlements until they get wights, so you may be right KryPtik.  I've never fought Gondor Cav start as Angmar yet so I'm just thinking of possibilities.

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #8 am: 7. Apr 2016, 19:30 »
Have you seen how weak Rhudaur pikes are? They might be good for creeping, and killing warg riders and battlewagons, but against any REAL cavalry they fall far short of the mark.
Arise! Arise, Riders of Theoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! Spear shall be shaken! Shield shall be splintered! A sword day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now! Ride now! Ride, ride to ruin, and the worlds ending! FORTH EORLINGAS!

d0m0a

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #9 am: 7. Apr 2016, 20:02 »
If I'm right, the Rhudaur pikemen, alongside the Rhudaur axe thrower, have utility until you start to recruit the Dark Numenoreans, and from then they only server for power up them, so for counter the knights there must be at least two Dark Numenoreans pikemen and TWO Rhudaur pikemen for use the bonus they have to the Dark Numenoreans, whatever alive or dead.

Elendils Cousin 3. Grades

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #10 am: 8. Apr 2016, 15:33 »
The stables' price went from 600 to 800, a whopping 200 more. It was a good change, yes, but it was not enough. Knights still overperform imo, since the change from the LPS-cup wasn't transferred over to 4.3.

Going for wildmen is the best thing that can happen to you when you play Gondor, because, as I said above, Knights wreck wildmen. Sure, you can lose your cavalry when you let them fight wildmen one by one, but why would you do that? You kill isolated groups of one or two units that are trying to harass you until you have three Knights, then you kill the army. Cavalry is faster than infantry, so Gondor has the initiative and can choose when and where to fight. And the wildmen will die, no matter what you do. And when they're dead, the Knights kill Wulfgar, who won't be out soon enough to have an impact. Btw, Wulfgar delays the tech upgrade for Isengard a lot because of his price, so that's another thing that you should be thankful for as Gondor.

I don't want to be rude or mean on purpose, but when you say that you don't get Knights vs Isengard where from my experience they are the single reason that matchup is currently a bit broken, I have to disagree with you. Recent matches from the LPS-cup should be enough proof, since the changes to Gondor cavalry have been very slight - try FireFly vs Skeeverboy or my match vs Mogat. Both Skeeverboy and Mogat are capable players, both didn't stand a chance against early Knights, both FireFly and yours truly snowballed that advantage to an easy victory.

Elite KryPtik

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #11 am: 8. Apr 2016, 17:18 »
I didn't watch either of those matches because they were streamed in German, but what I will say is this. Yes knights are good, but it depends hugely on what you do to counter your enemy. If you make Bill ferny and level him to 10, you can creep for huge amounts of gold, and very easily spam out 4 units of wildmen AND wulfar before the enemy has their first knight, depending on the map of course.

Now, instead of splitting those units, you push with them together, keeping tainted land on reserve and killing all of Gondor's farms, and if and when knights show up you throw on defensive mode and land, and then when the knights get stuck switch to offensive mode and kill at least half the battalion. Rinse and repeat. I have done it many times, and combined with fast wulfgar, level 10 bill and wormtongue, it can easily trump knights. Of course, if you are spamming out only wildmen and no heroes, you will lose the fight. Also keep in mind that while you are harassing you can very easily save up 1k to get machinery of war. I know how effective a Gondor Knight start is, I have posted replays of defeating Mordor with it, but I'm also quite certain there are ways to defeat it if you think outside of the box.

1 thing I do find very interesting is that there seem to be different "meta" strategies for German and English players. For example, most English players I know try to get Citadel and Tower guards out as quickly as they can with Gondor, while it seems most German players like to go for fast upgrades and Gondor Soldiers. I think this may have something to do with your belief, because in the 1 game I casted of Skeeverboy he got 2 wildmen huts and spammed out single wildmen, splitting them apart, which is VERY easy to counter with cavalry. This is not how my friends or I would do it, we would get a single Wildmen hut, and get Wulfgar ASAP, followed by a steady stream of Wildmen and Wormtongue asap.
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Draco100000

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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #12 am: 11. Apr 2016, 23:58 »
I would say that  wildmen are maybe the infantry that dies quicker in the game vs caval and also really bad should be   the player who charges against spam and try to scape trampling .
 Just stoping the caval and making them fight is enough to kill all wildmen and have no looses. Also i would use my soldiers to expand your armie and charge from behind, the flanking bonus is enough to make knights insta-kill wildmen. And wulfgar have really low health.


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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #13 am: 13. Apr 2016, 01:32 »
Totally agree in all points with Elendils C.
@kryptic: even if you clump your wildmens with land + wulfgar + bill + wormtongue, they ALL die against RiderS. Why? Because, as Elendil already said, you wait til you have more Riders. That doesnt need much time if you dont go for a barrack. I tested it, cuz your tactic made me curious. The enemy saw early on, that I went for Wormtongue and Wulfgar and instinctively went on more Riders and killed them all in one attack. Which leaves you with a GG cuz you dont recover from a 3 EG Hero loss.

Hopefully the ET will do something more to change this broken Matchup. I am also not a friend of the Slowdown Riders are getting, caused by clumping, speak the game engine. In my opinon this Problem is huge! Especially for a Rider folk like Rohan. You can counter a quick Rohirrim with 4 clumpt orc batallions :-( . But i think this is not the right place to discuss this, just had to mention it, cuz it makes me so angry ^^
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Re: Gondor knights and Dol Amroth
« Antwort #14 am: 13. Apr 2016, 01:42 »
I agree completely with what Django said. I have been complaining for some time now against Elendil that, when you get attacked in the rear, you slow down to the speed of the attackers [ugly]. It's extremely frustrating since you can't escape until the beleaguered model or squad simply dies and its present in almost all things, from orcs to the army of the dead. Anyway, yes, this is not the place to discuss it.
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